SHAH ALAM: Walk Like A Duck. It was reported recently that German manufacturer, Rheinmetall is close to signing a deal to jointly develop and supply the new Agilis 8X8 armored vehicle to Romania. The Agilis will incorporate Romanian technologies from the local-made SAUR prototypes and German Boxer 8X8 armoured vehicles.
A CGI of the Agilis
So what is got to do with Malaysia then? To me at least the Agilis looked as if its a pimped up version of our own Condor, especially with the cockpit-like driver position. The Condor was originally manufactured by Thyssen-Henschel of Germany, which was later taken over Rheinmetall. Compared the C-pattern Condor displayed in Bangkok earlier this month to the CGI of the Agilis.
I admit I may have an over imaginative mind though.The Agilis is bigger than the Condor as its an 8X8 and actually more comparable to the Gempita. They however does not look the same.
It would have been nice if we had developed a new 8X8 or 6X6 based on our long experience with the Condor, Sibmas, Commando and the Ferret armoured cars instead of relying on others. Nice but I also realised its prohibitively expensive to develop an indigenous armoured vehicle as even licensing one – as per the Gempita – is a big money sandpit.
Only countries like the UAE, Singapore and Saudi Arabia can afford to go down that route actually. This is demonstrated by their defence budget! Ours is not big enough to sustain a local defence industry especially those involved manufacturing.
Anyhow, I believed the Jais MRAP (pictured above) is a likely candidate for the 6X6 vehicle being looked at the Army as a replacement for the Condor if there’s fund to do it of course. Deftech signed an MOU with NIMR at the Bangkok show to serve as the Malaysian representative for its range of products. So actually, there is no telling what will be bought, if any.
— Malaysian Defence
If you like this post, buy me an espresso. Paypal Payment
View Comments (24)
Can we produce a bigger version of condor (or even ratel/sibmas) ? I guess. They both are basically derived from lorries. I reckon deftech can make something like Anoa. But then again there's no use in having something that isnt that much better than the likes of Condor/Sibmas, especially when we have plenty of them around
If the budget is tight then refurbishing the condors is a smart move esp if the parts are easily available. The funds should go to more important projects....
Marhalim，
No it is not "prohibitively expensive to develop an indigenous armoured vehicle". Cost will be offset by civil funding that were always budget for as a grant for development purpose to companies, academic institutes and related gov agencies. The armed force in general needs to take a backseat by being realistic in their wish list and actually make some contribution to the national strategic capability.
Marhalim, why are you familiarizing the Condor and the Agilis solely on the basis of the cockpit-like driving position? It's like you're ignoring the 95% difference between the two and focusing on the 5% similarity.
Why not say they both use wheels, thus both is very similar.
Producing an “indegenous” vehicle can be “prohibitively expensive” if the right conditions are not met. Regardless of where the funding comes from nobody wants to lose money and there must be economics of scale to justify the whole exercise. Also, amidst all this talk about “indigenous”, most of the components/systems that go on the vehicle have to be sourced from abroad.
It’s nice to say “x” equipment is “indigenous” but in the very first place would it have been cheaper to buy an off the shelf product, assembled locally with certain modifications or go through the whole process of actually locally designing a vehicle? One can also ask, does locally assembling or producing a foreign design actually benefits the country? Who really benefits : the local industry or the army and taxpayer? Also, no point in locally producing something if it’s cheaper to buy it off the shelf and if we have no plans for it to be progressively improved, e.g. does DEFTECH have any plans for an upgraded Adnan with superior protection and situational awareness?
Marhalim,
I hazard a guess the Gempita became 'expensive' because of it's self leveling suspension, something which I presume is of little use in combat, unless it's an MBT ( dug in/firing from an incline).
Reply
Not really
Zainal,
- The AV-8 became expensive because we decided to manufacture it here and had to pay to set up the production line as also the IP costs.
- Even if it was completely built in Turkey the AV-8 would still have the same suspension. It’s no big deal and also offered standard on most current gen wheeled IFVs.
The AV-8 will cease being “expensive” when enough are ordered to achieve economics of scale and the project will be justified if DEFTECH in the future (based on what it learnt from the AV-8 programme) manages to come up with an “indigenous” design with minimal reliance on foreign help.
Azlan，
No offence, but throughout my years I have seen too many armchair engineers like you in the office. There are only a handful nations, my hands are normal with five fingers, that can produce an AV from a to z. Intergration itself is a technology. lking about wasting tax money, we still canont even piece a mediocre AV together in the 21st century.
The main reason all our attempts failed because:
1. The armed force have no clue what they are up to, whether forced or voluntarily running a program;
2. They set requirements that are way beyond what they can pay and also have no clue what they asking for;
3. The programs were grossly mismanaged, no body was punished, only end up abandoning the idea for good;
4. Due to the above erratic, non predictable demand, the market is no sustainable, the next attempt always starts from zero.
6x6 APC is there an urgent need? Thought that with new APC in 4x4 and 8x8, we got it covered.
Assuming there is a need of 6x6 MRAP, the numbers will be small. A battalion worth of MRAP maybe harder to justify than a battalion of APC. Deftech is smart with the MOU. If a 6x6 APC is required, they can offer 6x6 PARS, then if its MRAP they have JAIS.
Looking forward to upgraded Adnan. Maybe Deftech can fix chicken cage, ERA, APS, 360deg camera, digital cockpit etc but why bother if end user is quiet on that front.
M,
Yes i wanted to ignore you but, you raised some interesting points.
I understand your experiences with the military are mostly dealing with the maintenance of the hawks.
IMO those experience is air force centric and a great example of why i think the air force leaders are living in dreamland, your point no 2 sums it up perfectly.
But i beg to differ regarding to the navy and the army. Yes more can be improved, but they are certainly moving on the right path. You can see the results with the LCS ( how a supposed OPV buy was morphed into a capable asw frigate, it takes some good navy leaders to come out with that ), the 15 to 5 plan. The army pushing for network centric force, the brilliant out of the box thinking of employing RPGs as a firepower overmatch against an opponent, the very early realisation of the need of increased armor protection that came out with the gempita. I was an early skeptic, but when you look at how big it is (it is bigger than the adnan, bigger than the current us army strykers) the malaysian army in a hindsight was one of the pioneers of the adoption of highly armoured (STANAG Level 4) 8x8 wheeled IFVs. So lets give them a credit where it is due.