SHAH ALAM: Earlier this year, Army chief General Hafizuddeain Jantan announced that the
main procurement programme for this year will be the High Mobility Armoured Vehicle (HMAV) and the High Mobility Light Tactical Vehicle (HMLTV).
During the interview at DSA 2024, Hafizuddeain expounded further on the procurement of both vehicles. The tender process for the 136 HMAV was on-going with a budget of RM400 million, he said adding that the procurement was part of the Year Four Rolling Plan of RMK12. The other story from the interview.
He said they are being procured for the 3 and 4 Kor Armor DiRaja, with only the latter having armoured vehicles currently.
“Even with the 136 vehicles, they are still not enough to fully equip the Cavalry Regiments and we hope to have funding to procure 6X6 armoured vehicles under the Year 5 Rolling Plan of RMK12” he said adding that additional Gempita may well be procured once the 4X4 and 6X6 vehicles procurement are completed.
The HMLTV is also an armoured 4X4 vehicle but meant for the Malaysian UNIFIL contingent. The budget for the 80 HMLTV is RM200 million The vehicle will be lighter and more nimble as per the UN specifications as they will be used in urban terrain. It will be used for utility and communication missions unlike the 20 Pantheras recently shipped to Lebanon.
Various companies were displaying their prospective HMAV and HMLTV candidates for the project with Mildef Technologies Sdn Bhd going to extend of naming its vehicle as HMLTV. A Mildef official was also quoted by a defence magazine as saying that the company had won the contract for both. The magazine had previously also reported an official of the company as saying that it had won a leasing deal to supply armoured 4X4s to the Malaysian Armed Forces.
Meanwhile, Hafizuddeain said the Army is looking to fund the life extension for the Adnan AFV initially for 60 vehicles before extending it to cover the rest of fleet. It also planned to conduct the same programe for the MIFV in service with 14th Royal Malay Regiment (Mechanised) and the armoured squadron of the 10th Para Brigade. Asked whether the Army planned to replace the squadron armoured vehicles, Hafizuddeain replied in the negative.
Both Mildef and Deftech displaying their proof-of concept Adnans at their respective booths at DSA 2024. The Mildef vehicle is from the 7th Royal Ranger Regiment while the one from Deftech came from the 12th Royal Malay Regiment (Mechanised). Cendana Auto Sdn Bhd, which is looking to do the SLEP for the MIFV, signed an MOU with Hanwha Aerospace at DSA 2024.
On the SPH programme, the General said they are still waiting for the final decision from the government. The Army hopes that the SPH selected was the one which suited its specifications and operating concepts.
The Army is also proposing for the funding Year 5 Rolling Plan to acquire two regiment’s worth of 105mm howitzers (36 guns) to replace the Oto Melara 105mm pack howitzers operating since the 1970s.
— Malaysian Defence.
Deftech as part of the Adnan upgrade spoke of equipping Adnans with a VTOL UASs. Makes sense as a UASs would enable the crew of a vehicle to have enhanced SA.
There’s a fine line between ”High Mobility Armoured Vehicle” and ”High Mobility Light Tactical Vehicle” but then like other armies we’ve fallen for acronyms. Soon we might not be calling a rifle a rifle or a pair of boots a pair of boots anymore but will have an acronym for it.
136 HMAV for RM400 million. That is a budget of around RM3 million per HMAV, or USD633k per HMAV.
That is less budget than a single Lipanbara which was bought for RM7 million per vehicle.
Also, i am not keen on too much rojak for KAD Cavalry regiments. I am okay for Gempita + another armored vehicle, but not 3 different types.
I am for the HMAV to be an armored reconnaissance vehicle, with benchmark of JLTV, Nurol Makina NMS, FNSS Pars 4×4 and Otokar Cobra 2.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FB_HwQCWUAUKWRv.jpg
Recently Morocco bought 200 Otokar Cobra 2 for USD136 million, which brings each cost to about USD680k, is is a bit over our budget.
https://www.military.africa/2024/01/morocco-buys-200-cobra-ii-tactical-armoured-vehicles-from-turkey/
For HMLTV, as most know, I am for the KIA KLTV, of about USD150k per vehicle. It is armored to STANAG 4569 Level 2-3, which is as heavily armored as the Tarantula, but weighs less than half of it.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GJTaWPeWgAAFL9i.jpg
Given that the Sharpshooter turret makes the vehicle top heavy with the potential to ”roll”; I’d have to question if an unmanned turret would be a better alternative [assuming it exists].
105mm guns are great for close support but they really lack the flexibility offered by 155mm guns. The M1 shell at full charge has a maximum 21-23 off km range so counter battery work is out of the question. In an ideal world arty units would have an organic UAS capability; as well as loitering munitions as a supplement but at battery level; not hogged by regimental HQ or level.
Yes I heard that but since there is no specifications for it, my guess it will not happen.
Neighbours sharing our borders got hundreds of 155mm howitzers and we are getting 105mm howitzers. The mere 18 units taking ages to finalise. Good grief.
… – ”I am okay for Gempita + another armored vehicle, but not 3 different types.”
Unsurprisingly you would be but whether it suits the requirements of Calvary units [due to its size, profile and other factors] and whether there will be the cash to get anymore in the coming years are really the questions …
I have no opinions on ”MRAPs”/”High Mobility Armoured Vehicle’”/”High Mobility Light Tactical Vehicles but I can see their uses. Interestingly the Ukrainians have found their various foreign supplied MRAPs to be unsuitable; no surprises I guess given that they were intended for Iraq and Afghanistan in response to the acute IED threat.
HMLTV from Mildef (the white one with UN color) is actually Mildef Rentaka right? If Im not mistaken Mildef makes some modification to the Rentaka hull and dubbed it as HMLTV to take part in army’s HMLTV tender.
Hasnan – ”Neighbours sharing our borders got hundreds of 155mm howitzers”
Singapore is the only one with an all 155mm force structure and it’s not as if our neighbours have lined up their arty along the border pointing at pre registered targets in Padang Besar or JB.
I’m all for an all 155mm force structure but the cash just isn’t there. Granted there are inherent limitations with a 105mm gun [discussed in depth here over the years] but it is what it is. What we can do is increase their efficacy by making improvements in organisation and other things; as well as getting ISR capabilities which are distributed down to battery level.
Mildef, Deftech, Weststar, Cendana Auto & etc…may this companies can give the best products and services to the armed forces.
Mildef, Deftech, Weststar, Cendana Auto & etc…may this companies can give the best products and services to the armed forces.
No idea
@Azlan
You said our armed forces is geared towards short border skirmishes with the neighbours. Whenever we acquire something of high deterrence, they immediately will response by quickly acquiring better stuff. We on the other hand, when the neighbours upgraded their stuff, we do nothing. Don’t tell me the neighbours are upgrading to stand up against the regional superpower. Kinda daft isn’t it?
The pack howitzers and 81mm mortars that we already have is adequate against any non state actors.
I wonder wether mildef rentak @ HMLTV meets d UN need statement for such vehicle
I thought nimr from edge group is d front runner ?
If my memory serves me right, the first 50 or 60 units of HMLTV is for UNIFIL requirements
Most of the pics above indicates d HMLTV is basically a compact mrap for utilities, communication n recon/scout purposes.
Should d specifications to b at such high end
I agree with hulu balang that to meet such requirement a cheaper equivalent such as d Kia LTV is more suitable
Any particular reason why do we need 2 separate upgrade packege for adnan and KIFV?
@Hasnan
“Neighbours sharing our borders got hundreds of 155mm howitzers”
Its okay, some said we have all the patience to wait & wait & wait until the Govt finally bends down and give them the SPH they desired. Maybe because we arent at war with anybody and there is no urgent need. But imagine if we are in need of them now…
Why not opt for 120mm mortar system, the type that can disassembled and carry by a squad? Its 1/3 the mass of LG1 ?
Generally, 105mm M1 shells have a max range of 12km.
Base-bled shells have a max range around 17km with rocket-assisted projectiles 19km range. I have not seen us firing base-bled or rocket-assisted shells before (not suitable for short barrel L5 pack howitzers, only for 30-caliber barrel LG1)
If we need the numbers, probably we can buy some old M101 from South Korea and upgrade them with LG1 barrels (as is done by Thailand). Yes it is old, heavy (around the weight of the BAE M119 actually), but a howitzer is still a howitzer. South Korea has thousands of them, and they are now replacing them with 155mm SPH and MLRS systems.
On the Nimr that has changed
@ kamal a
A good question indeed. Their normal range is about the same (around 12km). What a mortar cannot do is direct fire. But a mortar does not have barrel life issues like a howitzer does, so in a long war, this might be an advantage.
Currently we are using 120mm rifled mortar, which has less user compared to smoothbore ones. Fortunately countries close to us like Turkiye, South Korea, Japan also uses 120mm rifled mortar. USMC retired all of theirs, and if we want we can get them for free (around 60 mortars).
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fj1pRFCVEAAqIgk.jpg
Brand new, South Korea designed a lightweight semi-auto 120mm rifled mortar that can be fitted into normal 5 wheel KIFV/ADNAN and KLTVs (unlike french 2R2M version we use now that needs special 6 wheel Adnan)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FwPHWeyWAAEYPzG.jpg
I just don’t geddit to have something when the probable opposition outranges you….and they have the numbers and also more counter battery radars.
To fight non state actors we just need the mortars and hawks as previously in Lahad Datu.
Hasnan – ”You said our armed forces is geared towards short border skirmishes with the neighbours.”
I clearly did not say that. I said the MAF was not structured, equipped or trained for protracted state on state high intensity conflicts.
Hasnan – ”Don’t tell me the neighbours are upgrading to stand up against the regional superpower.”
Yes and no. Some buys are capability driven; some arge threat driven.
… – ”Generally, 105mm M1 shells have a max range of 12km.
Base-bled shells have a max range around 17km with rocket-assisted projectiles 19km range.”’
Depends on the charge and I did not know there wad such a things as base bleed and RAP 105mm rounds.
kamal – ”Why not opt for 120mm mortar system”
Been done to death. A mortar can supplement but not totally replace a howitzer; shorter reaction time; less penetrating affect; etc.
”Its okay, some said we have all the patience to wait & wait & wait until the Govt finally bends down”
I know you need to have the last say on the subject but that’s not what I said. I said the army was willing to wait a bit longer rather than being straddled with something ill suited for its needs and something it might have issues supporting. I also said we have a lonh history of that.
dundun – ”Any particular reason why do we need 2 separate upgrade packege for adnan and KIFV?”
Because they can take different weights; have slightly different wiring; different levels of power supply; etc, etc.
Hasnan – ”We on the other hand, when the neighbours upgraded their stuff, we do nothing. ”
It’s a cycle. At times when were were splurging; they did ”nothing”. Also, should what we do be based on what others are doing or on ensuring we can do what we’re supposed to do?
…
You filled in a gap in my education. You’re correct about the M1 round and the availability of based bleed for that calibre [invented by someone we’ve discussed previously : Gerald Bull].
Kamal -”the type that can disassembled and carry by a squad?”
How far and for how long do you reckon they can carry it plus the ammo and various other things? We don’t have pack mules …
… – ”A good question indeed.”
One which has been dealt with. If a mortar could replace a howitzer it would have been done but it can’t; anymore than a loitering munition can replace a howitzer or a mortar.
The Australians looked at it [mortars] years ago but discarded the idea.
Hasnan – ” I just don’t geddit to have something when the probable opposition outranges you”
Do you ”get” the fact that we can’t afford all the 155mm guns we’d like? You’re really preaching to the converted as I’m all for an all 155mm force structure. A 155mm gun provides the flexibility a 105mm can’t but it is what it is.
Hasnan – ”To fight non state actors ”
Well, what type of ”non state actors”? In 2013 we had thousands of troops backed by mortars, arty, IFVs and airpower? What makes you so sure we’ll face another similar threat?
Hasnan
kamal – ”I agree with hulu balang that to meet such requirement a cheaper equivalent such as d Kia LTV is more suitable”
Your agreement aside; suitable how exactly? Please share.
Let’s start with the basics. Did the army decided on MRAPs [I’m using the term loosely] because it was a cheaper alternative to a IFV or because it really felt that for certain roles it was more suitable than a IFV? To recap; this whole MRAP thing stated from Iraq and Afghanistan and was due to the IED threat. Decades previously the South Africans had the Casspir and Turbo Wolf. So put prices, assumptions and personal preferences aside; are such vehicles really suited for the role?
i don’t think adnan turret replacement is necessary considering KIFV didn’t even have an actual turret
No need to dissamble the 120mm mortar to bring it around.
Can be towed by small 4x4s like Japan
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/JGSDF_120mm_mortar_RT-transport%2820080113%29.JPG
and french paratroopers
https://img.over-blog-kiwi.com/1/47/73/87/20190326/ob_bba85e_ob-5bc5da-66.jpg
… – ”No need to dissamble the 120mm mortar to bring it around.”
”No need” for our needs but for others; maybe; despite the weight of the barrel, base plate and ammo. There are pics of Afghans in the 1980’s carrying dissembled mortars.
The Model 56 as is ”pack” designation implies was intended to be disassembled and carried by mountain troops on mules; so the theory went but in practice hard to do.
dundun – ”i don’t think adnan turret replacement is necessary ”
It’s no secret that the Sharpshooter makes the vehicle top heavy and makes the vehicle susceptible to rolling. Another issue is that a one man turret means the vehicle commander has to both man the cannon and command the vehicle. An unmanned turret would makes lots of sense and comes with various advantages but no idea if it actually exists.
dundun – ” KIFV didn’t even have an actual turret”
Was trialled with a OWS in the early 2000’s.
Kia KLTV is not MRAP.
My opinion is, as we don’t face insurgency issues anymore for now (with the problems of IED), we don’t really need MRAPs, but more conventional armoured vehicles. So we don’t need super heavy vehicles with same bullet protection like the old Condors but very high off the ground with more mine/IED protection.
My personal opinion – HMAVs for Cavalry regiments will need to be able to be equipped with at least the same gun calibre as Gempita ARV30s. Something like this lightweight RWS
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/El40wcdU8AA7SXA.png
HMLTVs, i see them as the new weapons carriers (with armour, not softskin like current) for BIS infantry regiments. Able to carry the 0.50cal M2, AGL, and ATGM like the Karaok. Modified versions to be ambulances, general purpose, even APC.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMTXudqb0AA5PSB.jpg
KPS will continue to be soft-skin vehicles. That said I was told a company will be offering KLTV chassis for the next round of tenders, but it is likely to be unarmoured.
So HMAV is basically a reason to buy the Tarantula and HMLTV is the JLTV/Pars 4×4/Cobra 2 equivalent??
TDM needs many other stuff like long range fires than to waste on such things…
Apart from things which are obsolete, most of the stuff on the Adnan and MIFV will be kept as they will be refurbished. Recycle and reuse as funds are short. It is likely that the SLEP will take 10 to 15 years to be completed due to the funding issues and industrial capacity.
… – ”My opinion is, as we don’t face insurgency issues anymore for now (with the problems of IED),”
Who’s to say that we won’t face a state on state threat in which IEDs are not employed? Also, the protection afforded against IEDs are just as useful against mines.
As I said “to recap; this whole MRAP thing stated from Iraq and Afghanistan and was due to the IED threat.”
”Did the army decided on MRAPs [I’m using the term loosely] because it was a cheaper alternative to a IFV or because it really felt that for certain roles it was more suitable than a IFV?”
… – ” HMAVs for Cavalry regiments will need to be able to be equipped with at least the same gun calibre as Gempita ARV30s.”
We’ve had this discussion before. Are cavalry/recce units expected to ply their trade whilst avoiding all contact with the enemy or are they also expected to come into contact with the enemy? Is the main weapon on their vehicle purely a means of self defence or to get them out of trouble in the expectation they will come into contact with the enemy?
These questions – which we have no answers for – need to be answered before we decide what the vehicles should be armed with. The Bundeswehr has Weasels armed with a 20mm; the Dutch have Fenneks armed with a OWS mounted HMG; the South Africans have Rooikat armed with 90mm; the Italians have Centauros armed with a 120mm gun, etc. Different armies have different requirements and way of doing things.
Imo the mifv/adnan SLEP is a chance to merge the design/equipment/systems on both into 1 as much as possible. As of now, the MIFV has a much more powerful engine than Adnan, but the Adnan has more advanced systems such as BMS, laser warning etc that the MIFV does not have. We should also look into the possibility of getting additional used KIFVs from South Korea to add to our fleet, for additional units and also for maintenance, attrition and prepositioned reserves.
If we can’t afford the 155mm howitzers then why waste money getting two more regiments of 105s? Might as well invest in some ISR or the locally made kamikaze drones
“the army was willing to wait a bit longer”
Easy to say ‘wait a bit longer’, how long is that exactly? And how long is too long that TDM will give up and just go with whatever?
To me a bit longer is within a budgetary year, maybe for some others is within an RMK so tops at 5 years. SPH idea was mooted since the 2000s and was seriously considered when the M109 order was placed in 2016 and then cancelled in 2018 by PH, so that was 6 YEARS AGO and you still peddle the ‘wait a bit longer’ spiel so maybe in your lingo that means 6 years or more to infinity until the Army has enough, is that it? Maybe they can choose to wait that long because there is no urgent need, because we arent at war. But what happens when we do need them?
“SLEP will take 10 to 15 years to be completed”
From an industrial POV that is well worth coz it just means jobs for that 10 to 15 years duration.
They had a look at an engine change for the Adnan but it was found that they had not had enough hours on them to justify a completely new one. Yes the Deftech POC has a lite BMS (from Thales and is linked to the Gempita one) installed on it but it will still depend on the government funding it. There are a long list of wish list for the Adnan but most of it are not funded like the shot detection module etc.
There is also no word whether the Bakhtar Shikan on the 12th RMR Adnans will be replaced with a new one though the Pakistanis want to sell the latest variant of BS. Yes I was told earlier the ATGW MR meant for the KPS will replaced the BS as well but was told that will not be the case now.
Note the RWS on the POC Adnan by Mildef is their own but yet again, there is no word that it will be funded paid for. Deftech also has a RWS on their stand for the Adnan SLEP but yet again no word if it will be funded.
As work on the POC MIFV has not been done yet (nor Cendana Auto authorised to take one out for it as other companies not Deftech and Mildef also wants to do the job), we will have to wait for what kind of things from the Adnan – once funded – could be fitted on them.
Waste on such things? Huh easy for you to say..That obselete condors need replacing and will not replace themselves..Even panglima said so himself that 136 Hmav are not enough to replace all that ancient condors. .Im pretty sure if given the chance and govt willing to pay,army want to replace all that condors with high end 6×6 additional gempitas even,but then ofcourse our govt will not allow them..so like it or not,the army have to make do with what they are given..
As that is the requirement, ISR and drones are different requirements.
@ Firdaus
Most of the condors has already been replaced.
Units with Condor
– 19RAMD – replaced with Gempita
– 7 RRD – replaced with MIFV then Adnan
– 1,2,3 and 4 KAD Cavalry – 50/50 mix of SIBMAS and Condor – SIBMAS replaced with Gempita.
– UN overseas deployments – replaced with Guardian Extreme and now Panthera
The remaining quantity to replace Condors 1-to-1 in KAD units is about 160 units. That does not need tons of HMAV + HMLTV + 6X6 IFV to replace. So why the army wanting to buy multiple types of vehicles to replace 1 type? Just buy 160 HMLTV and call it a day.
Currently the army, to be a conventional force it intends to be, lacks many fundamental capabilities that needs to be gotten. With our primary defence challenges are now mostly from the maritime area, Tentera Darat needs capabilities that can help to defend the maritime area.
Long range precision strike is something Tentera Darat has zero capability of. Nothing yet is planned to fill this gap. As is the still not resolved medium lift helicopter capability. So should the army prioritize HMAV and other armored stuff rather than prioritizing things that they have zero capability?
@Firdaus
“the army have to make do with what they are given..”
Thats the reality but some thinks the Army can choose to wait & wait & wait…
>If we can’t afford the 155mm howitzers then why waste money getting two more regiments of 105s?
The fck does this means?
”Easy to say ‘wait a bit longer’, how long is that exactly? ”
2 sides of the coin. ”Easy to say” it should have gotten the M109s despite it not suiting requirements and deemed to be problematic is some areas. You’ll no doubt need no reminders [or not] that we have a long history of being forced to get certain stuff but when things go ratshit it’s the services [the ones who actually operate the stuff] which have to pick up the pieces; not the politicians or parti pris observers who think they know better. Another reminder; the army did not cancel the M109s. A decision was made at the political level and it’s not as if army opposition would have salvaged the deal.
We’ve been through all this before but then you never miss the chance to bring it up and need the last say.
”you still peddle the ‘wait a bit longer’ spiel so maybe in your lingo that means 6 years or more to infinity until the Army has enough, is that it?”
Spiel [my, my getting more sophisticated we are]. Referring to yourself? What ”spiel” do you ”peddle”? Those words seem familiar.
”SPH idea was mooted since the 2000s and was seriously considered when the M109 order was placed in 2016 ”
If you’ve been following the narrative it was ”seriously considered” way before then [i.e. the requirement was registered and approved years prior]. Caesar first came in 1997;years later the K9. We came close on two occasions but last minute cancellations. The M109s were appealing because the government didn’t have to spend much but the end user was not really asked for his opinion, just like he wasn’t really asked whether the Little Birds were useful.
Then why pray tell the panglima said the army need more than 136 vehicles to compeletely replace the condors..224 units of HMLTV (mostly for abroad mission) and HMAV to equip 4 and 5 KAD here..