SHAH ALAM: IT appears that the Army main procurement programme this year will be the High Mobility Armoured Vehicle (HMAV) and the High Mobility Light Tactical Vehicle (HMLTV). Both are Kenderaan Jenis A or armoured vehicles. Army chief Gen Muhammad Hafizuddeain Jantan confirmed this in an interview with Harian Metro which was published on January 21.
The part on the HMAV and HMLTV:
Berkaitan perkembangan terkini bagi penggantian Kereta Perisai APC Condor, TD masih menunggu kelulusan Kementerian Kewangan untuk menetapkan kaedah perolehan yang akan dilaksana membabitkan 136 buah kereta perisai baharu bagi memenuhi keperluan di dua unit rejimen Kor Armor Diraja (KAD) menggantikan kereta perisai APC Condor yang lama.
Dari aspek keupayaan, sebenarnya jumlah kereta perisai berkenaan masih belum memenuhi keperluan di mana kita sebenarnya memerlukan sebanyak 224 buah.
Bagaimanapun, kita bersyukur dengan apa yang kita dapat dan akan cuba melengkapkan kedua-dua unit berkenaan selepas menerima 136 unit kenderaan itu nanti.
Berdasarkan pengalaman perolehan sebelum ini, proses penerimaan sememangnya mengambil masa. Kita jangkakan perolehan ini akan mengambil masa dua hingga empat tahun. Bagi tahun 2024, kami akan membuat perolehan kereta perisai bagi kegunaan MALBAT di Lubnan dan akan menilai semula keperluan bagi tahun berikutnya.
If you have been reading Malaysian Defence for the last five years or so you will know that the HMAV has been in the works all those years. Infact former Defence Minister DS Hishammuddin Hussein had announced the procurement of 134 HMAV in the proposed 2023 budget. When a new budget was presented, the HMAV deal was not mentioned at all.
As no budget was allocated for the HMAV, the Army then, I was told wanted to merge the two programme into one with the HMLTV taking the lead (even though there was a proposal to standardise the KJA into one vehicle – Gempita). Apart from the 54 vehicles for the Unifil, another 200 will be procured for the armoured regiments which had operated them – 3 KAD and 4 KAD.
The HMLTV will be a smaller 4X4 vehicle which can carry around 4 to 6 personnel and equipped with a machine gun or grenade machine gun. It will be like the Ferret or contemporary vehicles like the JLTV, Nurol Makina NMS 4X4 or the Nimr Ajban 4X4.
However, it appears that within the last 10 months or so the HMAV – an armoured 4X4 capable carrying around eight soldiers and two crew – requirement returns. And even though a 6X6 vehicle would be more capable – it could be equipped with a turret – with cannons, missiles, or mortar – it appears that the HMAV has won the day.
And what HMAV then? The Tarantula of course.
So, what about 5 KAD then? As I had mentioned previously, once the HMLTV are sent to Lebanon, the IAG Guardian MRAP – around a dozen or so – will be shipped back to Malaysia. After refurbishment, they will be sent to 5 KAD.
— Malaysian Defence
Good. Seeing all the vehicles being torn to pieces before sold for scrap kinda wasteful and will only benefit the scrap dealer. At least if they’re shipped they’ll be used for several more decades
So they plans for the deftech factory to go empty for the next 5 years? Or deftech going to get the HVLTV programme?
Yup and HMLTV is likely going to be an overseas vendor.
More rojak…
The only thing that makes the HMAV requirement sudden resurgence is because of high level lobbying and the need to have the TARANTULA be bought by the army.
IMO cavalry units of KAD does not need HMAVs as they are troop carriers. APC/IFV should be left to mechanized infantry battalions, as we already have those, and should convert more normal infantry battalions to mechanized/motorized if there is the need. Cavalry should be units that fight riding/driving armored vehicles. It can be a mix of 1 squadron of Gempita + 3 squadrom of HMLTV per regiment
If 19 RAMD are to be transferred to Sabah, ideally another Gempita-equipped mechanized infantry battalion should be created/converted in Sarawak.
For HMLTV. If something like JLTV, Nurol NMS, or Pars 4×4 is too expensive, i would not mind if we go for customized versions armored vehicles based on the chassis of the KIA KLTV. Of course it will have limitations, but it would be cheaper and can be bought in larger numbers.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F3hNlkMXkAARPho.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F3hNpZMXsAAnsG7.jpg
Maybe the Pars 6×6 will be locally assembled at Deftech factory ??
We should do nig and small like the french armoured formation. Get T90s to go with the 4×4 Tarantulas.
HMLTV is Fully imported in CBU forms?
Sound a whole lot like a JLTV. Some commenters would be wetting their pants just right about now.
The Nurol Makina Panthera 4X4 is going to UNFIL so meaning the HMLTV has been decided it will be this vehicle ya?
And while UNFIL it is just 20 units and the location of operation is at Lebanon so it makes more sense to CBU at Turkey and ship it from there, the HMLTV order is 200 units for use in Msian soil so I bet the politicians & lobbyist (NADI Corp) will push hard to locally build here.
As for Deftech, well its at Pekan, and like all things tied to its exMP (& PM), and guess where he is sitting at? Being a sub of DRB Hicom it wont go down so easily but its downward fortune will impact the group as whole.
50 Tarantula HMAV and the rest will be HMLTV.
Its meant that two local company Deftech (Unknown HMLTV) and Mildef (Tarantula HMAV) will be busy for the next few years.
Nope as mentioned in interview it will be 136 HMAV and 54 HMLTV
The HMLTV is likely to be sourced from overseas as the selected vehicle will be something well known so UN will not be hard pressed to pay for them.
The Panthere is a full sized vehicle similar to the Tarantula so it will not be chosen.
They cannot go cheaper than the Lipan Bara and the Panthera.
Although JLTV had performed well in trials, the current situation meant that it is unlikely to be pick.
Budget 2024 calls for 50 HMLTV and similar quantity of IFV.
And now no IFV but HMAV/MRAP is back on the limelight
Correct me if I’m wrong
Kja to avoid all the pening on the logistics, would be better to remain just the gempita.
And looking at the last paragraph of the press statement, 1st batch will go to Malbatt, and will evaluatenfor such need.
Doesn’t sound too suspicious.
Guardian when return to be refurbished and handed to 5KAD. 5KAD already has in it’s possession the Lipan Bara right.
4KAD with the recently received gempita, 3 KAD to received HMAV or LTV ?
Better to standardize the types used for operation in our soil
19 mech going to Sabah,any idea on which battalion to replace 19 mech ?
I agree with hulubalang opinion that KAD should be a unit that ride and fight ( as per my post last year ). Battle taxis leave it to the mech’s
The way I see it, the real issue on all this flip flop is due to budgetery issues
Basic brigade strength should be 1 armoured regiment+ 2 mechanized battalions (wheel or track) x at least 2 brigades in Peninsula Malaysia and a brigade each in Sabah and Sarawak. Standardize the equipment
LTV should just be a platoon size per armour regiment and mechanized battalions for recon purposes and escort duties.
To me it is more advisable to increase both adnan and gempita to meet the mechanized requirements (plus a couple of LTV) while armoured should be one of those light afv combine with a 105mm gun.
Just my 2 sen opinion
My second comment lots of typo errors 😔
And looking back at the last paragraph of the press statement is the 1st batch of MHLTV will go to Malbatt and will be evaluated to see if it meets our need.
Sounds highly auspicious
My prediction for next DSA 2024 procurement.
Mildef will go with 136 HMAV Tarantula
And deftech will go with Adnan 60 SLEP program first batch and the balance to complete the remaining Adnan 250+ in total.
And the remaining 88 vehicles to complete what the panglima TD told to equip 2 regiment 3 kad and 4 kad with 224 vehicle will be the 6×6. Not for now.maybe.
For the procurement of 50 HMLTV maybe other malaysian company beside from 2 company above promote the best lobbying company will get the tender
Pressume Nijmr arban will win,but if we want to customise the KJA programme I think all this procurement will go with turkey from the armanent like karaok and canik before. Maybe more panthera for HMAV and nurol makina nms 4×4 for HMLTV will be chosen.SPH pon likely from turkey with the current good relation our pm with turkey president.
“Bagaimanapun, kita bersyukur dengan apa yang kita dapat”
I fully understand that the top brass have to play their game with politicians and bureaucrats for whom defence isn’t a priority but ultimately it’s the government’s care of duty to ensure the armed services get what they need in order for them to carry out their assigned roles.
… – “The only thing that makes the HMAV requirement sudden resurgence is because of high level lobbying and the need to have the TARANTULA be bought by the army”
And also because getting a 6×6 IFV costs more money.
… – “IMO cavalry units of KAD does not need HMAVs as they are troop carriers”
Well it depends. How does one go about the recce/scouting role? To collect info/intel whilst avoiding contact at all times or to engage in combat when absolutely necessary whilst performing assigned tasks? Our cavalry way of doings things was of course based on the British model; note how the Brits equipped Fox, Saladin and Scimitar and how the units were organised.
When the army’s first recce regiments were formed with Ferrets and later Panhards; Squadrons comprised 2 Scout Troops and 2 Rifle Troops. Same case when Sibmas entered service; had a small troop compartment. In Bosnia [it influenced us in a major way when we later got into the mechanised combined arms business with 4th Mechanised Brigade] when we had the MALCON battle group; it included 2 recce squadrons; each of 3 Troops with 4 Condors and dismounts.
Also, there is a very fine line between a recce/scout vehicle Byrne’s for Cavalry units and a APC/IFV. Just like the fine line or distinction which can and does exist between corvettes, frigates
and destroyers.
Hasnan – “We should do nig and small like the french armoured formation”
Those are intended with the expeditionary role in mind: the long standing need for light vehicles to be able to be lifted to Africa to operate in a low threat environment.
Kamal – “Kja to avoid all the pening on the logistics, would be better to remain just the gempita.”
Obviously …. The problem is – as is widely known – the army can’t afford anymore AV-8s. It can’t even afford 6×6 IFVs which were a cheaper alternative to the AV-8s; thus the requirement for a MRAP which in our fondness/penchant for acronyms we came out with “HMAVs” and “HMLTVs”. Note also that to save costs we previously looked at squadrons comprising 6×6 IFVs and MRAPs.
That 60 ifv mentioned in recent budget is for adnan slep which already been approved and not for new IFV..That 50+ HMLTV for overseas mission will be the priority like that edjer yalcin maybe between nurol NMS/yoruk,JLTV or maybe otokar cobra..So tarantula for HMAV requirement? So does that mean there will be no 6×6 whatsoever to replace the condors here?
Mech units are RAMD which is the cream of crop hence they got the first dibs on anything. KAD is down the line. It is likely 3 KAD which has no Gempita on tap – based on the unit’s own FB page – will get the bulk of the HMAV with the 4 KAD getting a smaller number to fill out the unit already with the Gempita on hand.
No idea on which unit will take over the camp in Sg Petani once 19th RMR moves to Kota Belud. Perhaps, 3 KAD will take over the camp so they can refurbish or rebuild the married quarters in both camps so other units can moved there as well. The biggest issue about rebuilding camps and their facilities – apart from money of course – is where to put the unit when the construction project starts.
This will be a wonderful opportunity for MINDEF and the Army on how to conduct the recapitalisation of military camps which were originally build in the 50s and 60s which most are bad or terrible condition. Even camps built in the 80s are in bad state now days.
The LTV is only meant for Unifil mission, under the new plans.
It is likely – I am guessing here – that the KAD units mentioned will be also supplied with 4X4 weapon carriers to act as scouts as the HMAV are simply too big for that role. Perhaps, they will also get Cendana Auto mortar carriers – the Army need to order more of them – for the Kompeni Bantuan.
Unless of course in the next RMK they buy 6X6 for the Kompeni Bantuan. Around 18 6X6 mortar carriers will be enough for the three KAD units, 3 KAD, 4 KAD and 5 KAD. Again, it will be cheaper to buy 4X4 weapon carriers and mortar carriers.
Perhaps there will be 6X6 in the next RMK.
“The HMLTV is likely to be sourced from overseas”
“another 200 will be procured for the armoured regiments – 3 KAD and 4 KAD”
While understandably it makes more sense the 54 HMLTV for UNFIL will be made overseas and shipped to Lebanon, how about the 200 HMLTV for KAD? I dont think our politicians & beancounters can accept it all CBU overseas if its for use in Msia. And if its local partner, they kinda already have one with NADI Corp. They had once tied up with Deftech.
More Gempitas is the best scenario but no having enough money is the problem. I wonder if TDM can accept the lesser numbers within current budget then topup with next budget ie if they wanted 50 more Gempitas why not buy 25 in current budget and buy another 25 in next budget? But of course this predicates giving more business to Deftech (DRB Hicom)
If we had bought more than 200 HMLTV it is likely local assembly will be done here. Unless we bought the JLTV, it is cheaper to buy them directly from the US under FMS.
Should go for 6×6 with firepower! Otherwise, KAD will be toothless and should disbanded making way for mechanised to take KAD role and function.
Bum Bum – “Should go for 6×6 with firepower! O”
The role of Cavalry units is not to get stuck in combat with heavier enemy units… Also, it’s not only “firepower” but “firepower” along with manoeuvre and support from other elements which makes the difference.
Fathi – “.SPH pon likely from turkey with the current good relation our pm with turkey president”
Way way before Anwar became PM we had already identified the Turks as being a SPH supplier and a policy decision had already already been made to buy from the Turks; as part of a strategic partnership which includes industrial collaboration. Naturally the fact that the Turks are Muslims [albeit secular] also plays a major role; as it did with the Adnan and AV-8 selection.
A country which we should work closely with; one which from the 1980’s offered us various forms of industrial collaboration and one which is way ahead of Turkey in a number of areas is South Korea. Religion should not be the driving factor; rather getting our money’s worth in the interests of the armed services and taxpayer.
Kamal – “I agree with hulubalang opinion that KAD should be a unit that ride and fight ( as per my post last year ). Battle taxis leave it to the mech’s”
As explained in a previous post recce/scout/cavalry units also commonly carry dismounts. How they go about doing their business also plays a major part. From Day One our cavalry [or Recce regiments as they were designated before that] units have always had a dismount elements; i.e. Ferret squadrons had 2 Scout Troops and 2 Rifle Troops [in Bedfords].
We did roughly the same with the Panhard and Sibmas units and in Bosnia when MALBATT transitioned into MALCON the battle group [as it was known] had 2 recce squadrons; each of 3 Troops with 4 Condors and dismounts. Not every scenario will call for dismounts but they are part of the authorised set up for a reason.
@bum bum
Probably the 6×6 could be the KIFV & adnan replacement rather than the condors.
“it is cheaper to buy them directly from the US under FMS.”
Indeed but have we ever done things the cheap, reasonable & value for money way? Rarely if ever. The 6×6 if we ever have the money, would add more complexity to the vehicle logistics & maint. I prefer if we go the min-max approach; a force of 4×4 APC & 8×8 Gempita.
They cannot disband the KAD as they are among the small number of units which has non-Malays in their ranks.
Zaft – “Probably the 6×6 could be the KIFV & adnan replacement rather than the condors.”
How on earth exactly? One is a wheeled vehicle and the others are tracked vehicles. Different types of vehicles for different units to conduct different roles under different operational conditions.
We also can’t stand down the Royal Armoured Corps because it forms a vital element of the whole set up; performing roles which no other entity can or even should. Any suggestions that the Royal Armoured Corps should stand down and have it’s roles replaced by mechanised units displays a major lack of understanding on the subject matter.
@ marhalim
The concept of a kompeni bantuan is only for BIS.
There is no kompeni bantuan in KAD cavalry regiments.
For 1 KAD and 2 KAD, this is the current arrangement
1x HQ Sqn
3x Strike (Serang) Sqn (Alpha, Bravo and Charlie)
1x Surveillance (Pengawasan) Sqn with VINGTAQs
1x REME Workshop Sqn
(2 KAD also with PPKAD Sqn- pancaragam pusat KAD)
Fathi – “.SPH pon likely from turkey with the current good relation our pm with turkey president”
We had been buying from the turks way before anwar is PMX.
And why wouldn’t you. It’s a NATO member selling NATO compatible weapon and most of the tech underlying their weapon are either from British or Germany. but unlike most other NATO members they sells field proven weapons, also unlike other NATO members a developing country with PPP advantages meaning its products are way way cheaper, a relative rookies in the weapon market with domestic economic difficulties thus are more than accommodating to whatever our wish & fancy, we also have a trade surplus with them and and are awash with lira and generally with the value of the lira, one would be better off spending it as soon as one get it if not it would devalued further.
PMX relationship with erdagon & them being Muslims are icing on the cake and not the underlying factors. Which at the end of the day are still dollars and cents.
Nope, we are not buying the SPH from Turkey.
So someone push to sell tarantula to the army? Why not just buy more Ejder Yalcin for HMAV
A country which we should work closely with; is South Korea.
Agree & disagree in some ways. While you see Korea is at a high level today, from the 1980s to early 2000s, they were lagging a lot in terms of industrial tech & refinement. The Samsung phones of back then arent as competitive & well made as the Galaxies of today. Their Korean cars of the 90s were abysmal and it was only after turn of the century did KIA & Hyundai cars now are as good as Japanese makes. Their electronics industry were mainly cheaper-than-Japan contract assemblers unlike the cutting edge SK Hynix & Samsung Semicon of today. I would say its the same with their defence industry, it would not have been attractive back then even if we wanted to start working closely but today they have a reached a level where its viable for consideration.
In that sense quite similar to Turkish defence really but the Turks have religion card which sways a majority of rakyat. Then again, more & more young Malays are getting into the Kpop wave & visiting Korea so perhaps in 10-20 years time, sentiments might change if its Turkey vs Korea.
… – “The concept of a kompeni bantuan is only for BIS”
Every single infantry unit from Day One had/has a Support Company comprising a MG platoon; mortar platoon and AT platoon. Armoured Corps regiments naturally do not have Support Companies but they in the early days had 3 inch mortars and later 60mm ones.
Zaft – “ but unlike most other NATO members they sells field proven weapons”
Correction. Not all of what the Turks sell is “proven” and what exactly defines “proven”? Adnan was deployed to Lahad Dari in 2013 during the troubles. Does it mean it’s “proven”? “Proven” in what operational circumstances? Prior to the Ukraine; Caesar was deployed to Mali. It fired rounds in anger but the opposition had no artillery of their own and there was no EW and UAS threat.
Thus Caesar in Mali operated in a relatively benign environment; was it really proven” as Giat/Nexter claimed?
KAI says the F-50 is “proven” but the F-50 only did a couple of sorties dropping ordnance on non state actors in Marawi who had zero AD.
Something which Turkey has going for it is economics of scale. The Turkish military is large and the country has a coordinated, long term holistic policy in place with a clear view of what is intended to be achieved and with the needed resources.
Zaft – “PMX relationship with erdagon & them being Muslims are icing”
The fact that they’re are Muslim is a major factor in the way we go about doing things. A former DEFTECH [ex Armoured Corps Major] who was involved in the Adnan programme told me how several preferred vendors/suppliers from non Muslim countries [Finland included] were set aside and the government over the years has openly made crystal clear its intention to buy from and collaborate with Muslim countries as far as possible.
Also why do you think we looked at the M-70 MLRS [before ASTROS] and other things that the Bosnians could produce
Azlan
“I fully understand that the top brass have to play their game with politicians and bureaucrats for whom defence isn’t a priority”
Technically it’s the army that’s not the priority. The navy & AF meanwhile got their wishlist in the DWP fulfilled.
“How on earth exactly? One is a wheeled vehicle and the others are tracked vehicles. Different types of vehicles for different units to conduct different roles under different operational conditions.”
Doesn’t stop the French though.
zaft – ”Technically it’s the army that’s not the priority. The navy & AF meanwhile got their wishlist in the DWP fulfilled.”
Instead of obfuscating stick to the plot. The MAF as a whole is underfunded/under resourced. The RMN is a priority you say? Research how many missile armed ships it had in 2008 and how many it has now. As for the RMAF; when were the Fulcrums retired and yeas later where are their replacements? For that matter the intent to replace the retired F-5s was never realised and for how long was the C-130 and Nuri upgrade delayed? How long did the RMAF have to wait for its Nuri replacements? I could go on.
Also how can one – unless he’s living under a rock or is totally oblivious- say with a straight fact that ”technically it’s the army that’s not the priority.”? The army is the oldest and largest of the services; the one with the most pull/influence.
zaft – ”Doesn’t stop the French though.”
First you claimed that the 6×6 might be a Adnan and MIFV replacement. Then when pointed out to you that ”one is a wheeled vehicle and the others are tracked vehicles. Different types of vehicles for different units to conduct different roles under different operational conditions” – you bring up the French. Why not bring in the Imperial Guard or Merill’s Marauders whilst you’re at it? The idea that a 6×6 [with less mobility, armoured protection; carrying capacity and firepower] will replace the Adnans and MIFVs is ludicrous. There is no such intention; the 6x6s were intended as a Condor replacement.
“Nope, we are not buying the SPH from Turkey.”
Okay this is new news. The last we heard it was going for MKEK Yavuz, so now that is off the table? Back to square one again. Yet another kick to this political football.
So which flavour is it this time? Back to Army preferred Caesar? or reviving M109 again? or K9? Or we-dont-have-enough-money-so-we-KIV-it-to-another-2/3 RMK later?
Soon…
Azlan “Research how many missile armed ships it had in 2008 and how many it has now. As for the RMAF; when were the Fulcrums retired and yeas later where are their replacements?”
Never realised the current DWP goes as far back as the early 2000s.
Azlan “The idea that a 6×6 [with less mobility, armoured protection; carrying capacity and firepower] will replace the Adnans and MIFVs is ludicrous.”
Meanwhile the belgian are doing exactly that. Replacing their m113 with a 6×6. Ludicrous right?
As ludicrous as a 2000 ish tons LMS I might add.
So the 136 HMAV will under what unit? Since 3 KAD and 4 KAD will operate the new 200 NMLTV? Or each unit will accept two types of KJA?
ITs mentioned in the story, the HMAV will be operated by 3 and 4 KAD. NMLTV will be operated by the Malaysian troops in UNIFIL.
Zaft – “Never realised the current DWP goes as far back as the early 2000s”
Who said anything about the White Paper? If you want to engage in sarcasm at least do it right instead of going off going off track like you normally do.
Zaft – “Replacing their m113 with a 6×6. Ludicrous right”
What is “ludicrous” you continuing to spin things and engage in obfuscation. A reminder : the discussion was on the Malaysian army and your nonsensical claim that perhaps thrn6x6 might replace the Adnan and MIFV.
Zaft – “As ludicrous as a 2000 ish tons LMS I might add”
Really? If you really have something to say instead of coy comments for want of anything else; say it will instead of going round in circles and obsfuscating.
So Mildef bagged that 136 HMAV contract then? to equip 3 and 4 KAD?.That mentioned 224 units needed by PTD are for overall condor replacement needed? including HMAV here and HMLTV abroad..So if this 136 HMAV and 54 HMLTV procurement process going well,the army only need about 34 vehicles more to completely replace the condors then? Maybe this will go for 6×6 or maybe just additional HMLTV.And what are the odds that this HMAV and HMLTV procurement will go smoothly? HMLTV this year and HMAV next year?
And if MILDEF indeed getting that HMAV contract, most probably the ADNAN SLEP program will go to DEFTECH.Well that is just my wild guess.HMLTV now between NMS/Yoruk (same manufacturer of Panthera/Yalcin Maybe can get some discount LOL),JLTV or maybe otokar cobra 2 or NIMR Ajban
Just for 34 units only better dont bother to go with 6×6. Waste of money as we need to do all that localisation shenanigans just for a clutchful of them. Whatmore its unlikely TDM will get enough money for 6×6 so a more realistic outcome would be a mix of 4×4 HMAV & HMLTV.
As for Deftech they have been frozen out from more orders now that new players have also joined the armour supply club. Whether they will get the Adnan/MIFV SLEP is not given as TDM might just do it themselves or tender it to someone else.
HMAV almost certain goes to Tarantula? Cause SIPRI database for 2023 stated that mildef bought 178 engines for tarantula
SIPRI has been known to be wrong as well. One particular instance they said we bought the Pindad ANOA…
SIPRI often gets it wrong. According to SIPRI we bought AAMs in quantities which are farfetched. In the 1980’s various publications listed the RMN as Blowpipe user [operated from FACs] and the army as a SS-11 user when it was the RMN in the 1970’s which had it not the army. A defence magazine [at one point ADJ’s main local competitor but now defunct]; my previous employer was contracted to do certain things for listed for a number of years in its yearbook the RMAF being a HARM user.