SHAH ALAM: The Philippines Air Force (PAF) has taken delivery of the sixth Airbus C295 airlifter out of seven ordered. The sixth aircraft was formally accepted in a ceremony on November 9 in Manila.
From Airbus:
Airbus has handed over the sixth of seven new-generation C295 aircraft to the Philippine Air Force (PAF) at the aircraft turnover ceremony held at the Basa Air Base in Pampanga today, enhancing its military transport capabilities.
The milestone ceremony was witnessed by the President of the Republic of Philippines and Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the Philippines, Ferdinand Romualdez Marcos Jr., Chief of Staff of the Armed Forces of the Philippines, Lieutenant General Vicente Bartolome Bacarro, and Commanding General of the Philippine Air Force, Lieutenant General Connor Anthony D Canlas Sr.
PAF selected a fleet of C295 tactical airlifters as part of its medium-lift aircraft acquisition programme. These new combat proven C295s are dedicated for troops and equipment transportation across the archipelago.
Congratulating the Philippine Air Force on their newest C295, Airbus Defence and Space Head of Asia-Pacific Johan Pelissier said: “With the seventh aircraft on track to join the fleet in the coming months, we are fully confident that the new additions will complement the rest as an integral part of PAF’s fleet, as the air force utilises the aircraft extensively to boost its air-lift operations. PAF’s wide use of the C295 for various critical missions has fully demonstrated it as a reference user of the tactical airlifter in Southeast Asia.”
Since its first delivery in 2015, the PAF has successfully deployed the C295 for various transport operations, and humanitarian assistance and disaster relief missions, thanks to its access to short unpaved airstrips in remote areas, while carrying heavy payloads over long distances. The C295 fleet was pivotal in supporting PAF’s humanitarian assistance and disaster relief (HADR) operations, especially during the typhoons that frequently plagued the Philippines.
With nearly 30% of the global orders acquired by military agencies in the Asia Pacific region, the highly versatile tactical airlifter is a benchmark for military and civil missions in all types of environments.
— Malaysian Defence
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For troops transport. Slowly catching up. SPH from Israel & coastal missile battery from India. I think we are the only one in the region without a medium or long range coastal air defense. Which is why the PLAF dared to fly so close to our weakest point. Good work mindef :/
Qamarul – ”For troops transport”
Well it’s not for airdropping Jollibee or fun rides. You’d have noticed that the PAF only had 2-3 C-130s and serviceability was low.
Qamarul – ”Slowly catching up. ”
”Catching up” with whom exactly? The AFP has long been neglected and has only started getting things it planned a longtime ago; in small numbers. In a sense the Philippines is like us; buying a bit but never enough of anything because of a long and delayed shopping list; although fanboys get all excited.
Qamarul – ”I think we are the only one in the region without a medium or long range coastal air defense.”
If you performed a simple search you wouldn’t have to think because you’d know.
Qamarul -”Which is why the PLAF dared to fly so close to our weakest point. ”
Silly. It’s a peacetime situation and even if we had batteries of Patriots they still would have come close. Japan has AD systems but Chinese planes still fly in their ADIZ which they wouldn’t have if we followed your line of reasoning.
Qamarul – ” Good work mindef :/”
I’m sorry; do you have sources to share that MINDEF doesn’t ask for funding? Does MINDEF make policy or actually allocate funding?
the flips has plenty of legacy transport aircraft they’re looking forward to get rid of, like Nomad or F27 Fokker, and not only that they’re old, both of them are literally orphan product with the respective original companies already went bankrupt decades ago it make sense for them to buy C295 to replace these transport aircraft as well as to alleviate the burden on their handful of C-130s
That said AIROD did have few white tailed C-130 and I don’t see there’s any problem with the Congress about selling them to “friendly” countries
Sir Azlan but aside from 4 C-130 …this year another C-130 is coming to Phil Airforce..And they already released the budget this year 2022 for 5 Brand new C-130J long body….They keep improving yearly
Russia are still demanding Pinoy to honour their Mil17 buys which they backed out.
dundun – ”I don’t see there’s any problem with the Congress about selling them to “friendly” countries”
A traditional issue and one that remains for the PAF is support funding. Acquiring the hardware was never the issue. In the past the Americans were cautious in transferring certain things due to concerns that the end user would face sustainment issues.
”Russia are still demanding Pinoy to honour their Mil17 ”
Hardly news is it? To be expected the Russians would want the deal to proceed : lost revenue. The problem is the Filipinos/”pinoys” can’t and won’t.
Jun – ”They keep improving yearly”
It’s good they’re improving and to be expected because they’re – if you have noticed – making up for lost time. For decades the AFP was severely underfunded and most of what it had was devoted to internal security efforts. Are you aware that at one point things were so bad that officers handed out SIM cards to troops before ops.
Things were every bad previously and have significantly improved but as it stands; like the MAF the AFP is very overstretched and is buying a bit but hardly enough of anything. The key challenge will be to maintain a certain level of funding over a certain period – continuity. Fan boys get excited when things are bought but we need to look.at things in totality.
Buying some but not enough of something is super easy barely an inconvenience. We did it all the time, some hornet here some caracal there. Thought Unlike us, The PH do manage to get some follow on order, but the timeline is erratic and without any guarantees of when nor if the next batch purchases is.
Most of their purchases are imported finance by debt hardly a sustainable policy going forward. unlike local currency, foreign currencies isn’t infinite nor debt can just piles up without an upper limit. Defense is afterall an expense not an investment. This would impact the sovereign rating making interest higher for everyone’s else. Without cheap easy access to debt it hard to grow one economy.
They are US treaty allies but they bought missiles & platforms from everyone except for the American. Without utilizing the same missiles as US their ability to sustain a war effort is highly questionable. Military eat missiles for lunch afterall.
PH is trying to rebuild their military for external defense posture basically from scratch. They have a very accelerated timeline because they badly needed it even at the expense of sustainability nor operational efficiencies.
A good move for them but a horrible move for us to immitate. We do have the basic what we need to do is to work out on the sustainability & efficiency side of things. There’s no point in repeating our past mistake just out if fear of losing out.
Sir Joe. I think they will not proceed to continue Mil- 17 .especially USA GRANT them 100M $$ for the replacement of Downpayment for Russian Helicopter.Also USA gave them another 70M $$ for tixing and improving their base and HQ.
Jun – ” think they will not proceed to continue Mil- 17 ”
Get with the times. They have already made in publicly and crystal clear that they aren’t going ahead with it.
Zaft – ””Thought Unlike us, The PH do manage to get some follow on order”
We have a long list of follow on orders which I’ll be more than happy to list here.
Zaft – ””timeline is erratic and without any guarantees of when nor if the next batch purchases is.”
Like us…
Zaft – ””Without utilizing the same missiles as US”
Several things. Think…
– For a long time; as you’re aware or not; priority was internal security.
– A lot of what they would have liked from the U.S. they could not afford or the U.S. wasn’t going to transfer-
– They lack various enablers thus getting the same kit as the U.S. will not lead to the same level of efficacy.
– Sustainment costs. If you have been observing things for a while you’ll no doubt be ware that plans for Kfirs, Fulcrums and other things fell through because of sustainment costs; as did the U.S. looking at transferring F-16s.
Zaft – ”their ability to sustain a war effort is highly questionable.”
Their aim is not to ”sustain a war effort”….. Their aim to is acquire a level of deterrence and for the AFP to better monitor the vast archipelago. They are under no illusions that all the recent buys will be sufficient for the expected external threats they’re worried about or about the ability of the AFP to conduct high intensity protracted multi domain operations.
“Hardly news is it?”
Just to remind everyone that going on a indiscriminate spending spree doesn’t always bring benefits moreso when it was dictated by the emotions of a leader with a few screws loose. Now Pinoy are stuck with a deal they didn’t want but internationally damaging if they didn’t honour it or else, like us, pay penalty monies for equipment they don’t see. Uncle Sam could partly for them and help sell these off to Afghanistan or somewhere but that would be against their embargo. Either ways it will still be financially damaging to Pinoy.
@Jun
Unlikely it will continue as they didn’t want these either but it would be damaging internationally to abrogate a deal unless willing to pay some penalties, like we did with the aborted M109s.
“Just to remind everyone that going on a indiscriminate spending spree doesn’t always bring benefits moreso when it was dictated by the emotions of a leader with a few screws loose”
If you look at the discussions here over the past few years I think nobody needs reminders about the need for calculated and holistic procurement; your reminders notwithstanding.
As for a “screws loose” leader the Mil-17 was actually looked at way before Duterte came to power [offered the same period the Fulcrums were and later on too] and was considered because it had lower procurement costs compared to Western equivalents and because of issues with the UH-1s. In Durterte’s case it was not dictated by “emotions” as you put it but other factors and it’s not as if it had zero support in the AFP.
“your reminders notwithstanding”
It needs to be reminded as many are going gaga over Pinoy and Indo purchases left, right & center and then comparing with our own as it its pitiful. I disagree, even tho we aren’t buying as much as they are, it would appear we are being smart & careful about it. We are buying things more logically with inputs from the enduser and considering all the factors inc maintenance. Just to reemphasise we shouldn’t go willy nilly on a buying spree as they did.
“it was not dictated by “emotions” ”
IINM, the Mil17 deal came about because Canada refused to sell them Bell 412EPIs, which was their preferred chopper, in view it could be used offensively against rebels, DU30 was livid and cancelled the deal then moved onto the Russians.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-philippines-defence-canada-idUSKBN1FT20Y
https://www.cnnphilippines.com/news/2020/1/24/Duterte-12-helicopters-Russia.html
”Now Pinoy are stuck with a deal they didn’t want”
The Pinoys have long considered and been offered Mil-17s and ordered it as a cheaper alternative to Blackhawks. Funding issues and the political climate were such that Mil-17s were the most practical option when ordered [the Manila Times has archived articles on this]. Note that an evaluation team which conducted a paper and physical evaluation of the Mil-17 rated it suitable.
Note also that they still have a number of decommissioned UH-1s which can be brought back to service; some where recently. At one point a few were stored at the entrance to Clark airport which shares facilities with a PAF base [if I recall correctly I saw them in the 2016/17 period] and at Villamor in Manila.
”Either ways it will still be financially damaging to Pinoy.”
It will be ”financially damaging” to the Pinoys but in the long term it’s worth the exercise. They avoid the possibility of Uncle Sam sanctions; avoid the other political implications that comes with buying Russian and get compensated in other ways/forms. Last but not least they get more Blackhawks which they’ve always wanted but for considerable period was elusive because of funding limitations.
Even if they had considered it, it wasn’t their first choice which was the Bell 412EPI. Regardless, they are still a very Western biased equipped force and would have preferred not to go Russian. It was more of a DU30 decision rather than PAF.
Seeing the number of accidents climbing with the Hueys, I think they too would not want to risk lives with such veterans and rather get newer choppers, much like us and our Nuris. They could now get Blackhawks cuz it will be heavily subsidised by Uncle Sam.
”It needs to be reminded as many are going gaga over Pinoy and Indo purchases”
As my previous posts have made clear people need to look at things in context before jumping into conclusions and coming up with flawed and sensationalist fan boy reasoning.
”We are buying things more logically with inputs from the enduser and considering all the factors inc maintenance. ”
This is hardly the place for fiction and humour.
We hear the ”inputs from the enduser” but often than not we ignore them and we don’t ”consider all the factors inc maintenance” – at times there’s cash to buy stuff but cash for sustainment is only available later and often delayed. We also often don’t ”consider” things because for us it’s all about politics and looking good; not substance.
The expectation is what we buy will never have to be used for real; thus if it’s not really suitable for the end user that’s fine as national interests takes priority – the ”greater good’ come first and results in the deep rooted rut we’re in and can’t seem to get out from.
” Just to reemphasise we shouldn’t go willy nilly on a buying spree as they did.”
Right. We shouldn’t consume certain substances; should not to smoke as tar and nicotine are extremely harmful and addictive and should always buy stuff based on an actual appraisal of what we really need followed by considerations on commonality and sustainment costs as things age and throughout the projected in service period of a particular piece of kit. Right..
”DU30 was livid and cancelled the deal then moved onto the Russians.”
That a only half the story. What alternative did he have at that period pray tell? Could not afford Blackhawks during that period; had cancelled a tender for about 20 UH-1 years earlier; had major issues with some upgraded UH-1s; etc. They were also under pressure for more airframes as operational rates were low with the UH-1 fleet and the PAF had a heavy tasking; on any given day troops at various points in the archipelago – in Luzon, the Visayas and Mindanao – were on ops and needed heli support
”it wasn’t their first choice which was the Bell 412EPI. ”
No it wasn’t and nobody said it wasn’t; I merely pointed out that it wasn’t a spur of the moment thing and wasn’t because of Durterte’s ”emotions” as you put it. BTW the 412EPI wasn’t the preferred main choice either but that’s a story for another day.
”It was more of a DU30 decision rather than PAF.”
It wasn’t…. He made the decision because it already had been offered [since the 1990’s] been evaluated [the evaluation team had no complains] and the PAF wasn’t totally against it; one reason was because they could afford more as part of the allocated budget [compared to Blachawks] and because of factors inherent with the design which were seen in a positive light; such as the rear ramp. This is an issue I followed very closely; both from here and was I was there. His name when pronounced phonetically doesn’t sound like ”DU30” BTW….
”rather get newer choppers, much like us and our Nuris.”
Not ”like us and our Nuris”. Different circumstances.
With our Nuris a few got upgraded in the 1990’s and a few much later got auto hover systems but from the 1990’s the MAF’s intention was to have the needed upgrades to make them IFR capable and other things. Like with the PAF’s UH-1s; issues with the RMAF’s Nuris weren’t mainly related to age per see but other factors. Also note that PAF UH-1s have a much heavier tasking and some are older than the Nuris.
“What alternative did he have at that period pray tell?”
They could always go rent some civi helo or something. not like dutarte & war on drug would go on forever.
“the ”greater good’ come first and results in the deep rooted rut we’re in and can’t seem to get out from.”
That statement is true for all countries. What good is it for the taxpayer to funds something only to see it end up doesn’t serve the interests of the taxpayer?
Sovereign military capabilities along with military partnership is a tools along with diplomacy, economy, cultural influences for a state to further its own self interest.
What good a few Mil-17s going to bring when doing so get oneself CAATSA.
“The expectation is what we buy will never have to be used for real;”
To be fair, most in our region Even the PLA themselves are pretty much doing it.
Not every country is geographically & culturally bless like US,UK & OZ that has favourable geography, strategic depths, abundance of natural resources, food security, technological leadership, industrial capabilities, political cloud, financial capital & manpower to actually be in a hot war.
The Bell 412EPI purchase that was supposed to go through Bell Canada was cancelled because of Human Rights considerations with Duterte, yes, but that didn’t actually resulted in the Mi-171 being considered by the Philippine Air Force. Just look at their project working titles, “Combat Utility Helicopter Phase 2”– Meaning the direct successor of that project was the 16 S-70i purchase from Pzl Mielec-Sikorsky, make possible with the Americans putting up the difference and making the deal cost as much as the scrapped Bell 412EPI purchase.
Deal worked out for everyone, The Americans made sure that the PAF has a common platform that they could help support, the PAF was very happy in the Blackhawks, and Sikorsky-Lockheed Martin got a repeat order for the S-70is, maybe even more considering there are more helicopter acquisition projects slated for the PAF, and the Army wants their own MEDEVAC and CUHs.
The Mi-171’s Acquisition Project was called “PAF Heavy-Lift Aircraft Project” and was chosen because of the availability of a rear ramp to support loads that may otherwise be not rolled onto PAF helicopters, it had Duterte’s backing, and their preferred Heavy-Lift Helicopter, which is an actual Heavy-Lift Helicopter, the CH-47F Chinook, was too expensive and their budget was only good for 4 to 5 units, instead of the Russians who offered 16+1 units.
Take note that Manila’s Rotary fleet is actually too small for the constant action they receive, supporting COIN Operations and HADR Operations all along the Philippine Archipelago. The UH-1Hs of the PAF has been constantly going in harsh environments without Air traffic control for years in support of Humanitarian or AFP operations. Their goal, after the Horizon Programs, is to have 100 helicopters available at any given moment to support operations, and thus there is indeed value in getting more airframes out of a smaller budget if possible. The Mi-171 acquisition program was the Russian equipment least likely to irritate the Americans, as any procurement of offensive Military equipment would possibly invoke CAATSA to the Philippines, as although unlikely the Americans would bring that down to their ally, it is the Philippine government’s main concern.
There are also a fair amount of people that questioned the deal, citing the Russians’ shoddy aftersales support record, considering Malaysia’s purchase of Fulcrums and Flankers back then, saying the helicopters would be an unnecessary complication in the PAF’s supply chain for choppers, and that the PAF have always used Western systems and are more used to them, notwithstanding the parts bin the PAF could always raid that is the US Government.
Nonetheless, the deal was cancelled in the light of the War in Ukraine, when it became apparent that Russia is probably not capable of delivering those choppers, CAATSA fears since Russia was and is still is heavily sanctioned, and Manila and Washington being able to strike a compromise, with the US government offering an FMF deal of 100 Million USD to allow the PAF to purchase a bit more American Heavy-lift helicopters with the project’s budget, with the choice locked on the CH-47F, with Chinooks being something the PAF wanted for a long time, or another batch of the S-70i, to add on the PAF’s existing fleet. Only downside is that there is probably no chance in hell that the 15% down-payment for the Mi-171s could be ever recovered from the Russians.
Regarding the PAF’s UH-1 Fleet, the UH-1D Super Deltas was “officially decommissioned” after the signing of the deal for 32 Blackhawks, but as stated, the need for helicopters for the PAF is too great that they’ve been in ready reserve, and are brought out if the need arises, for training or the need to ferry humanitarian aid to typhoon-stricken parts of the country, because that happens every few months anyway. These are supported by Japan’s aid of UH-1 spare parts bin, allowing some to be brought back to service. The UH-1H was never decommissioned in 2021.
zaft – ”They could always go rent some civi helo”
While you’re at it why not suggest they could have gone for laser blasters or hypersonic platforms? They wanted a military grade helicopter to complement existing assets.
zaft – ” What good is it for the taxpayer to funds something only to see it end up doesn’t serve the interests of the taxpayer?”
More nonsense…. What good is it for taxpayers to fund something and for something to go wrong and then for taxpayers to fork out more funds to rectify an issue which could have been prevented in the first place if priority had been the end user and the taxpayer instead of national interests? You need some examples of what I’m referring to? Do you really have to obfuscate things?
Zaft – ”Sovereign military capabilities along with military partnership is a tools along with diplomacy, economy, cultural influences for a state to further its own self interest.”
Thanks for the monologue but instead of coming up with sentences which look great on paper and which look great on PowerPoint slides take note that it depends on the country; the context; the capacity; etc.
zaft – ”What good a few Mil-17s going to bring when doing so get oneself CAATSA.”
Which is why the bloody deal has been bloody canceled….
Zaft – ”To be fair, most in our region Even the PLA themselves are pretty much doing it.”
Again – how on earth do you come up with the things you do? In simple English the PLA expects and plans to be in a high intensity protracted fight with a peer opponent : we don’t… We live in a a gagaland world which is politically driven and where substance is not important; it’s not expected that the country will be in a major war. like I’ve reminded you many times : for years external threats we foresaw were the potential for brief and limited conflicts. Now this is completely different from China’s outlook.
If you can’t understand that well….
zaft – ”Not every country is geographically & culturally bless”
Going to tell me something as obvious and not germane as not everyone is born to a millionaire family; has a very high IQ; has homicidal tendencies and reads Moltke and Clausewitz in kindergarden?
FFAR – ”Manila’s Rotary fleet is actually too small for the constant action they receive, supporting COIN Operations and HADR Operations all along the Philippine Archipelago.”
Reflected in the fact that they traditionally had one of the largest rotary fleets in the region.
FFAR – ”The UH-1Hs of the PAF has been constantly going in harsh environments without Air traffic control for years in support of Humanitarian or AFP operations.”
Without ATC; in areas with poor ATC and in conditions of adverse weather which by right required a platform rated for IFR.
FFAR – ”The Mi-171 acquisition program was the Russian equipment least likely to irritate the Americans”
Whatever Duterte’s reasons; the Mil-17 was not totally opposed by the PAF. Wasn’t their first choice but it’s not as if a gun was pointed to their head forcing them to accept it. It was evaluated and came out quite favourably.
FFAR – ”Deal worked out for everyone”
Like I said; the situations was greatly ameliorated; they got out of a potentially uncomfortable situation; got the Blackhawks the always wanted and remained good chums with the Americans; losing money over the cancelled deal was a penalty worth incurring.
FFAR – ”There are also a fair amount of people that questioned the deal”
Just like how some questioned why the government bought F-50s instead of fully fledged fighters.
FFAR – “considering Malaysia’s purchase of Fulcrums and Flankers”
The Fuldrums were bought at a time when the Russian industry was in a chaotic state. Making matters worst is that we had no experience of working with the Russians. We assumed that dealing with the Russians was like dealing with Western companies. Those who were at the first and 2nd LIMA will remember the black/white brochures the Russians had and the selling of souvenirs/memorabilia in a AN-24 – the early to mid 1999’s was an era of chaos and transition for the Russian industry.
– To be fair some of the issues we faced have been due to us;not the Russians; i.e. delays in allocating to sustain the Flankers. Another issue is the fact issues pertaining to product support are via Rosboronoexport [it had representatives here and the DA at the embassy also provided assistance] and not the OEMs. One can direct inquires to the OEM but this came with issues; I know of an occasion when a fax was sent to an OEM in a far flung oblast but it remained a unanswered for days because of language issues.
FFAR – “the need for helicopters for the PAF is too great that they’ve been in ready reserve”
Anyone spending a few days in Manila or other parts of the country are bound to see at least one flying.
FFAR – “The Bell 412EPI purchase that was supposed to go”
A few years ago there were also some issues with a batch of newly acquired reconditioned UH-1s.
“wasn’t because of Durterte’s ”emotions” as you put it”
Well if you have something to dispute my open sources, I’m all ears (or eyes for that matter).
“412EPI wasn’t the preferred main choice either”
Well if the Blackhawk were easily affordable nothing else would be 1st choice either. PAF knows what they can afford and they went with the affordable choice best for them.
“It wasn’t….”
Well again if you have other sources, please do share. Sharing is caring.
“Like with the PAF’s UH-1s; issues with the RMAF’s Nuris”
Which is why I said; like us and our Nuris.
If we get to the brass tacks and avoid the assumptions and obfucations; the Mil-17s were ordered because it was the most practical and expedient solution then. There were issues Canadian 412s; issues with reconditioned UH-1s and other things. The notion that the then President bought it based on “emotions” is poppycock – it was a variety of factors. It’s also not as if the PAF was totally against the Mil-17 deal even though Blackhawks were the main preference.
This issue widely covered by the Philippines press [which has archived articles] and other sources. I also didn’t rely solely on open sources also inputs from people in the know; one of was responsible for structural related documentation; the other being a former C-130 pilot who attended the defence college here and was part of the term who drew up the requirements on the Mil-17.
The issue with the the Nuris and the PAD and its UH-1s were slightly different although it’s a penchant for some to make and insist on simplistic comparisons. We still intended to hold on to the Nuris and they; despite much delayed upgrades and other reasons; were in much better shape than the bulk of the PAF’s UH-1 fleet which they were already intend on replacing. A lot of the UH-1s also had much accumulated more hours compared to the Nuris and were in urgent need of replacing. As such the situation was slightly different and hardly directly comparable.
“wasn’t because of Durterte’s ”emotions” as you put it”
Well if you have something to dispute my open sources, I’m all ears (or eyes for that matter).
“412EPI wasn’t the preferred main choice either”
Well if the Blackhawk were easily affordable nothing else would be 1st choice either. PAF knows what they can afford and they went with the affordable choice best for them.
“It wasn’t….”
Well again if you have other sources, please do share. Sharing is caring.
“Like with the PAF’s UH-1s; issues with the RMAF’s Nuris”
Which is why I said; like us and our Nuris.
”Well if you have something to dispute my open sources, I’m all ears (or eyes for that matter).
Update. I’m not disputing your sources. I’m disputing your interpretation of the narrative. Again; because you seem to find it challenging to understand a simple fact; it was a combination of various factors which led to the Mil-17 deal.
”PAF knows what they can afford and they went with the affordable choice best for them.”
Given issues with the Canadian 412s and newly delivered UH-1s; the most expedient solution was the Mil-17 – period/full stop.
”Well again if you have other sources, please do share.”
Again; the sources are there and I told you where; as well as the fact that I wasn’t totally reliant on open sources but from inputs from those in the know. You expect to be spoon fed?
‘Sharing is caring.” If I told you the world was round and not flat would you ask for sources whilst you’re at it?
You would know wouldn’t you?
”Which is why I said; like us and our Nuris.”
You say a lot of things : again; the situation with us and the Nuris and the PAF and the UH-1s were slightly different and I have given the reasons why; if you want to insist it’s the same : knock yourself out.