Quotation Notice for HOM Guns

23 Comments

1. Marhalim,

   Apart from the SPH, RMAF Nuri replacement and LMS Batch 2 programmes; as week as vehicles for the army; what other so called big ticket items are funded under the current Malaysia Plan? Has it been confirmed that the MPSS and Jernas replacements will be under the next Malaysia Plan?

2. AFAIK there is no Jernas replacements, MRAD going to RMAF. Army is supposed to be get one big ticket item for this RMK. Whether or not funding will be made available is beyond me. MRSS is supposed to be in the next RMK.

3. Well ‘…’ will be overjoyed. The problem of course is that the RMAF will prioritise the defence of its assets unlike GAPU which although is an army unit is also tasked with the defence of critical national infrastructure. Then we also have the RMN which has no organic land based AD; totally reliant on others.

4. Other big ticket items in RMK12 2021-2025
   – LCS Gowind completion
   – Scorpene refit (from Opex?)
   – FA-50
   – ATR-72 MPA

   @ Marhalim

   ” AFAIK there is no Jernas replacements, MRAD going to RMAF ”

   If that is the case, why are they building a brand new larger base specifically for 34 RAD GAPU if they have no plans to replace the now obsolete and unsupportable JERNAS? In a few years we would probably be the last operational user of rapiers in the world.

   Also according to plan in the next RMK is supposed to have the LMS B2 Tranche 2, for another 5 units of LMS Corvette at a budget of RM4.1 billion. The second batch of HOM is also due, as is the ASW helicopter requirement.

5. Apparently the M3M isnt just the gun itself but include the pintle & aircraft mounting system: “The M3M is a weapon system rather than just a machine gun. The system has three parts: The Machine Gun, the Medium Pintle Head (MPH) or “Soft Mount”, and the Cradle, which is used to integrate the weapon into a particular aircraft or vehicle.”

   Its interesting to note that TLDM also went for equivalent weapons but from other brands on surface vessels ie Vektor 7.62mm & Canik 12.7mm MGs, rather than standardising their surface & air MGs.

6. “Army is supposed to be get one big ticket item for this RMK.”
   Yeah by right should have been Gempita Batch2 but that got deprecated all the way down to KJA. But if they could bungle small ticket item SPH multiple times along with the changing Govts, how much more can they screw up a big ticket decision? They might be the most senior branch service with arguably the biggest budget but they certainly arent showing that gumption and authority other than playing politics.

7. The Canik is basically the same gun though it is the Turkish M2 variant which can be fired from a land mount if and when needed.

8. There will be money for guns and SHORADs…

9. ”But if they could bungle small ticket item SPH multiple times along with the changing Govts,”

   How did the army ”bungle” it? The decision was made at a political level and although the army was consulted it’s not as it had a say or it’s opinion would have made a key difference.

10. “AFAIK there is no Jernas replacements”

    Is there a requirement to replace our manpads marhalim?

11. yes

12. If GAPU isn’t going to get a new generation SHORADs to replace Jernas and will only have a force structure comprising V-SHORADs I don’t sen any need for its continued existence. It’s not like GAPU is a large entity and has a air defence school anyway. Must as well stand it down and have its V-SHORADs become organic assets to brigades/ battalions. I’m a firm believer of decentralisation. Whether it’s missiles, UASs or counter battery radars they should be organic to brigades/battalions to ensure the capability is there when needed and they can train with the units they support. Placing them under the control of a HQ [eases logistical and administrative issues] is inflexible and runs the risk of them not being available when needed.

    Or have a joint AD command; tasked with providing all services; ass well as key economic/political infrastructure with AD coverage. All V-SHORADs would still however be still operated by the respective services. Like how a future joint UAS command would only operate MALES. Why joint comments? To ensure all services get the needed capability in a efficient and flexible manner; to avoid role duplication and service centric parochialism and infighting and to ensure we get the optimum of what we have.

13. As it is, we don’t have the means to equip each battalion or even brigades with their own AD systems. GAPU is practically a national-level asset similar to 10PARA or Briged Artilleri Rocket.

    Currently GAPU is tasked with providing all services; as well as key economic/political infrastructure with AD coverage.

    The army must have big plans for GAPU as they are building both a new dedicated HQ for GAPU and new larger facilities for 34 RAD GAPU, and blurring them from google maps. Even the multiple new large hangars for 882 PUTD was not blurred in google maps.

    I am a firm believer that the best and lowest cost course of action for malaysia to have ground-based MRAD is to replace 34 RAD GAPU Jernas with a medium range air defence missile system, of which if TLDM LCS Gowinds are to be fitted with VL MICA NG, then the missile system for MRAD should be VL MICA NG too.

14. As usual, the Army plans changes…

15. “As usual, the Army plans changes…”
    Which doesnt give assurance to what they actually want so Govt, politicians, & beancounters take advantage to influence TDM buys. Which is how they keep bungling the SPH buy til today when we see NOTHING compared to if they stuck with M109 deal.

16. Hulubalang “if TLDM LCS Gowinds are to be fitted with VL MICA NG, then the missile system for MRAD should be VL MICA NG too.”

    If TLDM truly want MICA then there’s no need to put the SAM status on the LMS2 as FFBNW as the MICA is already integrated with the Ada.

    And if RMAF are in charge of MERAD, they won’t go for MICA either.

17. ”we don’t have the means to equip each battalion or even brigades with their own AD”

    Precisely why what little we have must be distributed on a flexible and decentralised manner… Same reason why UASs and radars must be organic to artillery batteries and regiments; not a higher formation.

    … – ”Currently GAPU is tasked with providing all services; as well as key economic/political infrastructure with AD coverage.”

    Then raise a joint AD Command. Makes far more sense. ”Jointness” is everything; especially for resource strapped militaries. Same reason why in the future all MALES must be operated by a joint ”UAS Command” to maximise efficacy; reduce redundancy; ensure those who need the capability get it when they needs it and to reduce the service centric parochialism and bureaucracy which still lingers.

    Given it’s size and resources it’s sheer buffoonery to expect that GAPU will be able to provide the RMAF with coverage.

    ”’ – ”of which if TLDM LCS Gowinds are to be fitted with VL MICA NG, then the missile system for MRAD should be VL MICA NG too.”

    I’ve been harping about commonality here for a while now but commonality if it suits the purpose’ not for the sheer sake of it. If the RMAF or GAU for whatever reason decide that another system is more suitable; so be it.

    ”I am a firm believer that the best and lowest cost course of action ”

    ”I am a firm believer” that there’s no such thing as ”best” only what come closest to getting what one needs [after the needed trade offs] and that whatever we buy must be networked with other assets; namely alerting devices.

18. ” Then raise a joint AD Command ”
    There is no need for a joint AD command if you put all the GBAD assets under 1 service, which is the TD GAPU

    ” Given it’s size and resources it’s sheer buffoonery to expect that GAPU will be able to provide the RMAF with coverage ”
    Do you naively expect TUDM if equipped with MERADs it will be solely used to protect TUDM airbases? As it is right now GAPU has more human and infrastructure resources, and also experience than TUDM to absorb and operate MERADs

    ” there’s no such thing as ”best” ”
    What you described is actually the meaning of “best”. If you want to be pedantic notice that I did not use the word “perfect”.

19. There is a need for joint Commands if you understand or are willing to a knowledge that there’s a reason why people have joint commands; that joint command increase efficacy and that
    redundancy and service centric parochialism is a lingering issue. On top of that the idea or notion that a small GAPU will be able to enable coverage for its sister services in addition to doing the same the the army is fantasy.

    Yet you spoke of “naively”. Rich. And yes the reality is that RMAF AD assets will mainly be used to defend RMAF targets. That’s the reason why all 3 services has/their own V-SHORAFs to do with the need to avoid relying on others. If a RMAF base was being pummelled you expect the RMAF to move its only medium range SAM regiment to cover an army base? Yet you have the nerve to mention “naive” and there’s a difference between being “naive” and “ realistic”.

    Or are you “naive” enough to be under the cloud cuckoo land illusion the services will always selfishly look out for each other? People don’t stand up joint commands for fun or because it looks great on paper. The SAF stood up SADA for a reason as it did with its UAV Command and so did Ukraine and South Korea with their joint UAS set ups.

    No despite voices telling you there is no “best” only what comes closest to meeting requirements after the needed trade offs are made. As for being “pedantic” the “…” should not be calling the Azlan kettle black

20. Whateverlah azlan.

    Yes only you are right.

21. … – ”Yes only you are right.”

    Well, first of all you’re reverting to your default mode. Childish. Seen this over the years before. Secondly, if I’m wrong – whether about jointness and the fact that the RMAF can’t be expected to provide AD coverage to the army – show how I’m wrong instead of cherry picking, making assumptions and refusing to see anything not in your train of thought. The RMAF will only have a single regiment; if it’s bases were being hot you really think it would be able to help the army? Do also look up the benefits of joint commands and why people create them instead of showing a tantrum.

22. Joint commands is needed if there is many units all doing the same thing

    For example UK Joint Helicopter Command because there are helicopters operated by RAF, RN and British Army

    Why do we need to have Joint Command if all GBAD system is under one service ie GAPU?? Even UK has disbanded all RAF air defence units and has put all GBAD under Royal Artillery 7th Air Defence Group (7 AD Gp), which is a mirror of our own GAPU (Grup Artilleri Pertahanan Udara)

    Anyway I don’t want to, and I am not here to play your games of attributing things that I don’t say to me, and I am not going through the hassle to correct that.

23. Joint commands are especially needed for militaries like ours which are resource strapped; for a variety of reasons and not just or mainly for your “if many units are doing the same thing”.
    They negate issues related to command/control; inter service parochialism and rivalry and redundancy. Not hard to fathom. Do look up why the SAF has SADA and why Ukraine and South Korea set up UAV Commands [get a link]. It’s not for fun or to look sound on a PowerPoint slide.

    As for your comparisons perhaps look at the nuances rather than direct comparisons which you traditionally do. GAPU is in a completely different position to the RA and its AD assets. For one the RA has alerting devices which are fully linked to the RAF’s IADS and there is strong fighter cover.

    The idea of having a joint AD command; just like a joint UAS Command; is also to ensure that those who need the capability get it rather than having it hogged by one particular service. As I said; if the RMAF’s bases were being pummelled you seriously think it would be able or would want to assume the army with its sole medium range AD regiment?

    As for “playing games” are you referring to yourself?