SHAH ALAM: When Malaysian Defence posted about the MRCA 5G recently, some of the responses were mostly that it was just a hype for LIMA 2025.Several days later RMAF confirmed that it was looking for MRCA 5G in a video published in its official social media channel. The teaser video was published as a run up the Fighter Reunion 2025, where former and RMAF fighter pilots and leaders return to the Butterworth airbase.
The teaser video which clearly shows that the MRCA 5G or even the next one will be its mainstay in the future. Interestingly the aircraft featured in the MRCA 5G post were included in the teaser video.
Yes, the government may delay the funding for MRCA 5G into the next RMK and not in the next one, but the writing is on the wall, low observables will be future of RMAF. Most of the past RMAF chiefs attended the reunion which was held at the airbase on February 22.
It is interesting to note that most of them will be familiar with the fighters and aircrew present at the reunion as they were the pilots themselves or the ones that taught the pilots or shepherded the entry of the aircraft into service.
𝐅𝐈𝐆𝐇𝐓𝐄𝐑 𝐑𝐄𝐔𝐍𝐈𝐎𝐍 𝟐𝟎𝟐𝟓: 𝐂𝐎𝐍𝐍𝐄𝐂𝐓𝐈𝐍𝐆 𝐏𝐀𝐒𝐓 𝐓𝐎 𝐓𝐇𝐄 𝐅𝐔𝐓𝐔𝐑𝐄, 𝐒𝐀𝐓𝐔 𝐒𝐄𝐌𝐀𝐍𝐆𝐀𝐓 𝐊𝐄 𝐀𝐑𝐀𝐇 𝐌𝐄𝐌𝐀𝐂𝐔 𝐌𝐀𝐒𝐀 𝐃𝐄𝐏𝐀𝐍 𝐓𝐔𝐃𝐌
BUTTERWORTH, 22 Februari 2025 – Tentera Udara Diraja Malaysia (TUDM) buat pertama kalinya telah menganjurkan Fighter Reunion 2025 (FR25) bertemakan “Connecting Past to the Future”, bertempat di Hangar ASF, Pangkalan Udara Butterworth. Acara bersejarah ini telah disempurnakan oleh Panglima Tentera Udara, Jen Tan Sri Dato’ Sri Mohd Asghar Khan bin Goriman Khan TUDM.
FR25 bukan sekadar satu pertemuan tetapi sebuah penghargaan kepada wira-wira udara yang telah berjuang bersama-sama dalam mempertahankan ruang udara negara. Pelaksanaan majlis ini juga merupakan cetusan idea oleh Panglima Tentera Udara untuk mengumpulkan semua anak kapal pesawat pejuang TUDM, baik yang masih berkhidmat mahupun yang telah bersara.
Kehadiran lebih 250 juruterbang dan jurusensor senjata menjadikan FR25 sebagai medan penyatuan semangat setiakawan yang tidak akan pudar ditelan zaman. Ia juga menjadi platform berharga bagi generasi muda TUDM untuk menimba ilmu dan pengalaman daripada para veteran yang telah berjasa dalam menjadikan TUDM sebuah angkatan udara yang unggul.
Majlis ini turut diserikan dengan kehadiran oleh mantan-mantan Panglima Tentera Udara iaitu MMU Tan Sri Sulaiman bin Sujak (B); Lt Jen Tan Sri Dato’ Seri Hj Mohd Yunus bin Mohd Tasi TUDM (B); Lt Jen Tan Sri Dato’ Seri Abdul Ghani Aziz TUDM (B); Jen Tan Sri Dato’ Seri Abdullah @ Dollah bin Ahmad TUDM (B); Jen Tan Sri Rodzali bin Daud TUDM (B); Jen Tan Seri Dato’ Sri Affendi bin Buang TUDM (B) dan Jen Tan Sri Dato’ Sri Ackbal bin Abdul Samad TUDM (B).
Permulaan acara telah dimulakan dengan Panglima Tentera Udara menolak trottle pesawat pejuang sebagai gimik perasmian diikuti dengan demonstrasi ‘Force Down’ yang mempamerkan keupayaan pesawat pejuang TUDM melaksanakan pintasan pesawat asing. Seterusnya, para tetamu dibawa melawat ke booth pameran bagi mengimbau kenangan yang terdapat di skuadron pesawat pejuang. Dalam majlis ini, Panglima Tentera Udara bersama-sama mantan Panglima Tentera Udara turut menyempurnakan acara pemotongan kek. Tayangan montaj istimewa turut dipersembahkan di akhir majlis yang memaparkan visual-visual bersejarah generasi anak kapal pesawat pejuang dan menyingkap transformasi TUDM sepanjang 67 tahun penubuhan.
Panglima Tentera Udara dalam ucapannya menegaskan bahawa TUDM kini berada dalam fasa transformasi, menuntut semua warga TUDM untuk terus berkembang dengan teknologi dan kecekapan operasi bagi menghadapi cabaran pertahanan yang semakin kompleks serta evolusi peperangan moden.
Semangat perjuangan yang diwarisi tidak akan pernah luntur. FR25 menjadi bukti bahawa semangat persaudaraan, pengorbanan dan kesetiaan dalam kalangan anak kapal pesawat pejuang akan terus mekar, mengukuhkan ikatan antara generasi lama dan baharu dalam mempertahankan kedaulatan negara.
— Malaysian Defence
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IMHO perhaps we should purchase additional Scorpene class submarines. They’re a force multiplier. As for the Mrca the Rmaf got FA-50M coming in possibly 2 squadrons & the Kuwaiti Hornets. That should be enough until 2035. But our 2 ageing Scorpene could really use extra hulls to lower the operational tempo subsequently reducing the cost and increase readiness. The south china sea is a hotspot where a single miscalculation can trigger skirmishes or even war. 2 additonal lithium ion Scorpenes would be the best option for Rmn. Complimenting 5 Lcs & 6 LMSb2
It’s inevitable, the question is when…
the air force wouldn’t be concerned themselves with the navy’s needs especially since the navy had plenty of high profile procurement screwups for the last 20 years
Qamarul,buying subs is agood thing to have,but ATM needs to handle china CG ships.The way to handle this issue ATM should play China’s tune,set as many rouge fishing boats ourselves,lay as many floating nets in order to damaged their propellers.No China CG will want to ply those “infested” waters.
Another method is to sent divers near china CG,reasons to test their sonar capabilities n weakness.
Now n then signal jam the areas where there are so many ships around n hoping there will be major accident at sea involving their CG ships.
Are we provoking china..NO,the more ships they sent,float more floating nets that can do major damages..hopefully they get tired n leave SCS alone until they come out with idea to counter the issues.
Its not like one can buy a fighter jet today and have it delivered tomorrow. It’s would take 5 years to pick a jet then another 5 years for the 1st jet to be delivered which is 2035 already.
As for the subs. Am not particularly interested in any more scorpenes. It’s cost a whole lot more then the Germans or the Germans derivatives from SK or turkeye.
If we can’t afford to buy 28 helicopters, I just wonder how we can afford 18 5G MRCAs
Hopefully not Russian again with the barter trading.
We can afford to buy the helicopters lah, the government just making excuses.
I’ve read that the first variant of the KF-21 Boramae is more akin to a 4.5G fighter, with a 5G variant coming down the line.
If the 5G variant and the purchasing intent (whenever that be) lines up, perhaps the KF 21 would be a suitable choice for us?
Or is there already a preferred pick by the RMAF already?
Nothing is a preferred thing at the moment
I don’t think i can add anything meaningful to this discussion, so i am leaving it at that.
But for the next 5 years, the most urgent defence matter that we are going to face is the matter of when China will aggressively enforce its claim on the 9-dash line, effectively annexing most of our oil & gas, fisheries resources in South China Sea.
Every single sen we spend, must be something that would give the biggest effects for our defence of our resources in our maritime zones.
I don’t have a crystal balls
But them risking worldwide sanctions for few fish and gas ain’t worth it nor we have a death wish of getting flatten like gaza.well at least for most of us. Some people do have a death wish thought.
I think people are missing the point about the 28 leased helicopters. They will be sold off for MYR 1 after the lease is offer. This is a lease to buy with no residual after the lease period.
Its what I have said all along, despite the pooh pooh even in the last tered.
Yes cost of 5th Gen is a huge issue but with proper budget planning and commitment from the pursestringers, I estimate a small fleet of 6-12 will be possible. 18 units on a 1to1 replacement for MKM will stretch even more unless the OEM/country willing to trade in our MKMs for a big discount.
Looking at TUDM conservative nature, I believe the totem pole of their choice:
F35 (yes its a single engine but nothing is gospel)
KF21 (unproven yet and questionable timeline on 5th gen add ons)
KAAN (even worse but at least its from a muslim country)
SU57 (if all the above is no choice at least we familiar with Russkis)
Temu/Wish-a-plane (absolute last place)
Why 5th Gen over others? Lets take a look what that potential adversary had been throwing at us:
Sea-CG & PLAN surface vessels in SCS & our EEZ.
Air-Transporters near Miri and flights from their carrier bases.
Land-err none?
Reviewing above, its most likely we are going to be disadvantageous if their carrier 5th Gen gonna run rings around our legacy jets, while at sea our MMEA & TLDM big ships can show parity with theirs. Hence why I see the decisionmakers are prioritising 5th Gen next.
Redsot,
I kind of like your suggestion and passive way of countering the situation. But still think the ‘mano a mano’ way is still very much needed just to show our presence and prevent them from permanently seizing our all important assets.
We need more large patrol vessels to shoo away these unwelcome vessels from the surpossed 9 dash line.
Any news on potential AWACS platform?
” few fish and gas ”
That few fish and gas is 40% of the total Malaysian GDP. Our GDP is nearly 400 billion USD in 2023, so you are fine that we lost USD160 billion from our GDP???
https://www.mida.gov.my/ms/revitalising-the-maritime-industry-through-blue-economy/
@ joe
As for KF-21, the koreans have a clear timeline on getting full 5th gen features for KF-21 by early 2030s, and MUM-T (manned unmanned teaming) systems with KF-21 at its core before the end of the next decade. As someone with working experience with the Koreans, i wouldn’t bet on them not achieving their plans.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GWCt4XdW4AE94k6.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GkKgux8XIAALtc0.jpg
I think people are missing the point about the 28 leased helicopters.
Even if after 15 years you can buy for RM1, then in year 16 you don’t need to pay for maintenance of those helicopters meh??
Please see this table and understand what it means:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gkh2xRZb0AAyUwu?format=jpg&name=4096×4096
If you still cannot see why RM16.5 billion is absurd and think it is fine, i don’t know what to say.
“full 5th gen features for KF-21 by early 2030s,”
Its too late if were to make a decision at 2030 in view for induction by 2035. As I said above, TUDM would want to see the actual completed plane in use at the time of decision making, rather than trust a promise of the future. Realistically its possible we might make a decision later with the ever excuse of budget constraints, as such a later timeframe will benefit KF21 then but will be detrimental to the readiness of our airforce as we have to wind down MKM operation by 2035 to spare us from a costly engine change SLEP, and our legacy Hornets, unless we can boost the numbers & spares with Kuwaiti Hornets, will be phasing out the currently SLEPing units in stages likely can fly them for just another couple of years post 2035. So if w/o the MKMs and with dwindling Hornets, we will be totally unprepared for another massed incursion from 2035. Therefore 5 years is not a lot of time to decide really.
@Z.A
As far as i can see chinese are also human,they have feelings n fear just like us.
Wars n other than wars are WON by wits,cunningness and deceptions,its just a matter who have more balls n tricks up their sleeves.
Even with bigger ships ATM will never shoo away chinese C.G or PLN thats for sure.
What ATM needs is to play to their tune.
In country,the chinese faction are drumming n flying hi China flags in the hope of getting what they want thru China interventions indirectly.
ATM,PDRM needs to dampen this spirits and ensure high penalties,now China are watching,if nothing is done their 2nd waves is to sent C.G,PLN ships plying malaysian water they called it 9 dash line.
The 3rd wave will be to buy all major stocks,shares and make sure malasia will totally rely on them.
If only ATM can break any one of those waves the next waves will not come easily.
Melayu you guys are always comfoetable with malay surroundings,never wants to understand what other races wants..their aspirations are bigger than the malays with “tidak apa attitude”.
You will understand when you hit the brick wall,as for now ATM can play combat combat in their own backyard.
@redsot
At this moment in time, we don’t have the resources,money, manpower,asset nor training to work alongside a tier 1 military on the front line. So it’s quite a delusional of grandeur to even suggest we are going to fight and win against another tier 1 military all by our lonewolf self.
It’s extremely perplexing how people would come to that conclusions, the fact is the number of asset and munitions we had wouldn’t even past a month in a high intensity warfare situation. We would relied not only on foreign supplies of military item be it for more expandable but also to replace asset that had been lost.but also food as well as financial aid to keep the economy going.
Multilateralism also create huge uncertainty .While PRC can withstand a single country sanctions, a worldwide sanctions would hit them hard. Militarily while they can run over any single country but a multilateralism would complicated their calculation as it’s not a 1 vs 1 situations that some individuals here dream off but rather 1 vs who know how many vs who know how many other fly their asset, claim to be neutral but feeding off Intel to their enemies. It’s create huge uncertainty to their calculation as their enemies now have quality, quantities as well as variety.
In general it’s make war more unlikely and thats what the aim always is. We never going to drive the Chinese out of SCS short of hot war and we don’t want a hot war. Neither do the Chinese for that matter. We wanted 0il extraction while the Chinese wanting prestige to keep the CCP monopoly on power back at home. And as long as the status quo continue both get what they really wanted.
As for the Chinese investment, well the more the better. Because that would incentives the American to do the same to maintain their influence. Just look at how many goodies both militarily and economically the American had thrown our way.
off topic
anyone have any news on this F-5 barter trade? Why just F-5, not the MiG-29s?
https://t.co/s6waKjPE54
BS talk as usual. Barter trade with who. Back in 1982 at least Thai still runs these jets. Now its 2025 who da heck wants them?
Meanwhile on a different note that could @ should benefit us, the Swiss are set to retire their F/A-18s beginning 2027. And knowing the Swiss, these F/A-18S must be well kept and in excellent condition. More F/A-18 for our inventory?
@ZA
Nope. The grapevine is these Swiss Hornets are going to reach airframe lifespan by retirement. Flying into & out from mountains takes a toll with higher stress fatigue.
@ joe
Swiss Hornets unlikely to reach 6,000 hours limit when it is retired. Even their previous F-5 has plenty of hours left, and now bought back by USA to be used by US Navy and USMC as adversary assets. Even its previous Hawker Hunters have low flying hours that companies in UK and USA snapped them up for contractor duties.
I don’t mind getting/hoarding them as spares source/contingency stash if we can get them cheap/at scrap value.
Aint what I heard. Theres also a reason why USMC not going after Swiss Hornets. Flying in & out of caverns is no joke and the stress on airframe is rather similar to carrier based.
Reason why USMC is not going after swiss hornets is because they are not retired yet, and USMC hornets will also be retired when that time comes.
They are looking at Kuwaiti hornets because it was supposed to be retired and replaced by super hornets in 2021…
If USMC wanted they could have went for Aussie Hornets or Finnish Hornets. That the Kuwaiti ones are the best condition to be coming into market, means theres plenty life left to fly is also why their highly sorted and we dont get our act in order, we will see them go bye bye and left with figuring how to keep MKM in full operation until at least 2035 or more.
If we were to get any other jet for MRCA 5G other than F35 then we would need to stock up more classic hornet since neither KFX/TFX nor GCAP would have full operational capabilities by 2035.
KFX would be at trench 2 but still a 4.5 gen jet, GCAP and TFX would likely still be limited to air to air only trench 1. Which means the gomen would only need to procure 8 example for a period of 2035 to 2045 for conversions training and the bulk of the purchases be made post 2045.
The British did offer a workshare of the GCAP when it was GCAP. Now its Tempest, we didnt even get an invite.
“Now its Tempest, we didnt even get an invite.”
The Japs have replace us in the line up and its better for everyone. We arent in a financial nor technical knowhow position to contribute anything.
We don’t even know when the tempest development will be completed.
With such a small budget for defence, we can only afford to buy a MRCA that is already in production.
We should just wait for KF-21 BlockIII aka KF-21EX for our MRCA, and leverage Korean Combat UAS, MUM-T combination with the KF-21 in 2031-2040 timeline. 5 years away is not a long time to wait.
From what I understand KF-21EX is a variant of KFX with a larger body & different engine. It’s basically the equivalent of super hornet vs classic hornet. Thus Neither trench 1 or 2 of KFX can be upgraded to KF-21 EX just like classic hornet and grippen C cannot be upgraded into a super hornet or grippen E because it’s an entirely different aircraft altogether.
You are going to get stuck with a 4.5 gen jet in a 6th gen world if one bought either the trench 1 or 2 of KF-21 nor there’s a guaranteed that KF-21 EX would ever exist. As
kF-21 EX like KF-21N isn’t even a paper plan, as it’s doesn’t even exist on paper just yet nor SK had throw in money nor have guaranteed to throw money to build it nor any kind of work had started on it. At this point it’s exist as a concept proposal by KAI and nothing else. If anything not just GCAP it’s even behind that of FCAS in term of developments.
@ darthzaft
What nonsense are you spewing?
For KF21 to be considered, the full fat 5G plane has to be in operation by 2030. Its as simple as that. No 4.5Gen nonsense.
If someone thing a concept proposal is an actual plan. Might as well believe that FB22 and F16 EX exist then.
It’s so cheap to build and design avionics, integration and change jet engine and bodies that they do it all the time. Said no military jet contractors ever.
How hilarious to read some comments that are insist RMAF should get 5th gen fighter without considering RMAF capability, support and budget to operate the jet. Some even consider KF21 4.5th gen which is still in development stage and none is operational even in ROKAF and KF21 5th gen is still somewhere in the air.
Let’s put this issue in the context. RMAF will gradually retire all jets in 2035. The new jet should be bought in 2030 so RMAF will havr smooth transition. Reality is there are only 3 jets considered 5th gen. Unless RMAF open their option for China and Russia hardwares then US made F35 is the vuable option but unfortunately the US will only sell F35 beyond 2035. LM is fully booked until 2035.
The other option is some matured 4.5th gen which will not drag RMAF too hard to operate it.Your wish is one thing but reality should be the base of thinking.
Yeah…we can dream of those 5th gen jets,F35,F57,KF21 etc…but the most affordable RMAF can get is F18 super hornet as her 5th gen fighter.And get pimped near to 5th gen fighters.
“some comments that are insist RMAF should get 5th gen fighter”
Funny you should say that as that is what TUDM wants as well, not just the readers. Im sure their cognisant of the requirements for 5th gen. Are you telling me you know TUDM more than TUDM themselves?
@joe
I am not but reality back up my opinion.
Btw, most of them are retired and it was a reunion where chit chat is the main course. Reality is RMAF failed to get SH and replace Mig29 when many of them are still in active duty. They wish for 5th gen is a common wish for everybody.
FYI
4.5th gen will not obsolete beyond 2035 because Dassault will launch Rafale F5 with her loyal wingman in 2035. It could be followed by gripen and typhoon despite they all trying to build their own variant of next gen fighter. They will not drop what already on hand for something that is still uncertain.
How can anyone say KF-21 is unaffordable?
https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2768054/korea-pitches-fighter-jets-to-defence-minister-sutin
Even Gripen E/F is more expensive than that.
KF-21 will have full manufacturer support for upgrades etc., with planned MUM-T systems integration (Korean Air KUS-LW and others) long into the future.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GkKgux8XIAALtc0.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GkzDp-LaYAATQUQ.jpg
TUDM is right to prioritise getting 5th gen for its future MRCA.
F/A-18 Super Hornet line will be closed by first half of 2027. We aren’t going to order any MRCA in this few years.
There’s a reason why french decided to continue on with the rafales.
One is threats perception, while Russia may have talented engineers and so on but they lacked the industrial power to manufacturers cutting edge hardware in high enough numbers.
Heck Russia also no longer have attritional capability, even without US, the rest of NATO have more personnel,tank,IFV, fighter and so on then Russia have.
Secondly the collaboration with Germany for the FCAS aren’t going smoothly at all. Even the 2045 timeline had slips at least according to desault.
As for the PRC, they do have the manufacturing capability, in fact it’s estimated that by 2045 both PLAAF and USAF would be 70% composed of 5th gen and higher.
Let’s wish to make a wish,
Th RMAF wants 5th gen fighter – 30 units F-35/KAAN/Su-57.
Then the RMN also wants 6 units of TF-2000 class destroyers.
Not wanting to be left out the Army wants 80 units Leopard 2A8.
Practical? Feasible? Payable? Only time can tell.
The navy dont want the TF2000 destroyers, their plan is out there to see, what they want is MRSS, LMS Batch 3 and ASW helos in RMK13. The Army has plans for new tanks to replace the Pendekar. They have not say which tanks will replace them.
Its the same for the air force they have plans for two squadrons of MRCA. They did not say 36 or 24.
” The Army has plans for new tanks to replace the Pendekar ”
Nooo
Replacing existing army capability should not be the priority right now.
Expanding the army capability, getting fundamental capability that the army still does not have should be a higher priority compared to MBT replacement, M4 replacement, or whatever replacement.
Marhalim,
Why don’t the RMN choose the 163m UAE Makassar design? For the price maybe can get 3. Then focus on getting more Adda corvette maybe 12 of them. And get 12 MH-60R ASW helo and call it a day.
No lah, I was just bluffing about the 30 5G fighters, 6 TF-2000 and 80 Leo 2A8. The government is going to pay with what?
“They wish for 5th gen is a common wish for everybody.”
Retired they may be but their much closer to the totem pole of current/future decisionmakers than you and me. Their ears are closer so they know what their saying I believe. Logically as we delay the buy further, more 5th Gens become more viable option.
One can say its not practical for enduser (TUDM) but thats what the enduser wants, and they had been stiffed many times with inferior planes (Migs & MKMs) because what they wanted was not ‘practical’ to afford at the time. Its high time we give them what they wanted.
I have no idea really why RMN did not choose the 163 meter Makassar, do note that the based on the UAE Navy, the ship cost around RM1.8 billion each. I am not sure the bean counters will want to spend that much on a single RMK, as they also need to pay for the LCS, LMS Batch 2 and 3 and the ASW helos
Am not to sure why many are questioning the feasibility of 24 to 36 F35 starting from 2035. The acquisition cost is the same or lower than that of 4.5 gen fighter, the upgrade cost is obviously cheaper thanks to it’s economic of scale with 1000 example to date. While the availability rate is lower with higher sustainment cost. It’s simply because it’s do more. It’s like saying a McLaren P1 has lower availability and higher operating cost then a civic type R. Obviously it is because it’s can do so soo much more.
The question is really boiled down to politics rather then operational. Either the American don’t want to sell us one or our political leaders in their infinite wisdom from their few remaining braincell find American jet politically incorrect.
Whatever platform we get is secondary as all the would be contenders can do the job.
The issue is will we again get a small batch then call it a day indefinitely? Will we have the needed resources to operate the platform the way we want? 5th platforms are more expensive to run compared to legacy ones, they also are more resource extensive and require a higher level of trained manpower. Ultimately also, unless the tines comes when we finally get a AEW platform we will not be able to operate the 5th gen platform to its full potential.
As for the Russian angle. Way before it hit the news about the possibility I mentioned here there was interest.Then again the RMAF will hardly want to be in a position again where it has to operate Russian for reasons well known. I also doubt we’d want to antagonise the EU with which we conduct much trade. Never mind the Yanks.
There is also the question of how adavanced the Russian option willve if the time ever comes when we buy it. Also how to we do integration if we buy a AEW platform?
Lastly Russian airpower despite a numerical advantage and on paper highly impressive stuff such as the Flanker, long range semi active AAMs, longer range radars [people tend to be memorised with “long range”] and other things have performed dismally.
Granted it’s because of training and a doctrine which does not call for the VKS to conducted an integrated joint air campaign the way the West does but it’s telling.
Another question is if indeed the 5th gen deal goes through, how will it affect the requirement for a 2nd batch of F/A-50s? Us not proceeding with a 2nd batch will again be a “little of everything but not enough of anything” neither here nor there situation yet again.
The ‘advantage’ of KAAN is it is the size of the F-15, but so as it is bound not to be ‘cheap’ to buy and also not ‘cheap’ to maintain. If can ‘afford’ only 8 units might as well forget about it.
Zainal,
What 5th gen type is “cheap” to run?
None.
If we can get the Kuwaiti Hornets and upgrade their avionics and engines to Super Hornet specs while arming them with AIM-174, it would be a huge step forward.
Dude,
Tge “keyword” is if. You seriously think we’re going to spend huge amounts of cash on something we plan to only operate for a decade? Even with stuff we already have, we underfund. Depot level maintenance on the Su-30s was delayed. Same with the Hawks over the years. With the Hornets [a platform we have more confidence in compared to the Su-30s], the main issue was we hardly bought spares in the right quantity and orders were often delayed. This had an affect on servicibility – as pointed out to “…”.
Thus my concerns that if we get the Kuwaiti Hornets, we’ll pat ourselves on the back but again do things on the cheap. Most are focused on getting the platforms but not what comes after.
Getting those Kuwaiti Hornets not just helps to prolong the usage of our current existing Hornets, it also helps to give us more breathing room to decide on 5th Gen MRCA a bit later. So even if we gonna use for just 10-15 years its still worth getting, moreso if Kuwait willing to give at friendly prices.
Even if the process of acquisition starts tomorrow, we would take 5 years to parade it around different defense show before we make a decision (if we make a decision that is) then it would take 5 years for the manufacturer to start sending the first jet and it’s not like they can send all 24 to 36 airframe on day 1 or the question whether we could afford to pay all of in one RMK and not splitting the cost over multiple RMK period.
So even if it’s technically true that we would *start replacing the hornet in a decade. The Kuwaiti hornet would stay with us for at least 15 to 20 years or maybe even longer and not just for a period of 10 years.
Another thing is the upgraded is mostly plug and play as someone else had payed for the integration cost. Which means we could get something as capable as our neighbours grippen E, viper and Rafale without breaking the banks.
If anything financially speaking it better to move resources away from the MKM to the Kuwaiti hornet as not only upgrading the MKM is a financial nightmare even pulling a SLEP in itself a political and logistical nightmare.
There was never any question that getting the Hornets have many advantages.
My point is that various prerequisites have to be met. In a decade they need replacing rather than being retired with no capability gap. Before that we need to invest in ordnance and ground support gear – traditionally been deep fisted with this. We also need to a account for the fact that these jets cost money to operate and maintain – we have a long history of getting stuff but not increasing the operational budget. Lastly, even with our 8 Hornets we have a history of not getting sprares on time and when we do get spares it’s in small numbers. This has affected operational rates.
Yes, getting the Kuwaiti Hornets has advantages [this is understood and is what most focus on] but prerequisites also have to be met. We have a clear history of doing things on the cheap. No point in getting the Hornets and the politicians patting themselves on the back if we can’t afford to operate them they way we want because of shortages of operational funds, spares, etc.
“upgrading the MKM is a financial nightmare”
Actually the financial nightmare isnt so much the upgrading but its the engine replacements when their useful lifetime has reached. The Hornet engines last much longer.
IMO..
As we speak today, after the 1st batch 18 units of FA50 are delivered, the gov and RMAF must look for a new MRCA available out there to be delivered before 2035 and 5th gen fighter is not a must. The germany also drops the F35 for typhoon after Trump “hostile” announcement (4.5th gen will not obsolete in 20-30 years) The 2nd batch FA50 can be rescheduled.
Next step is are getting AEWC, add/replace all ground radar to AESA variant, military satelite and then 2nd sq of a 5th gen MRCA procurement can be done.
Zaft – “for at least 15 to 20 years or maybe even longer and not just for a period of 10 years”.
Boeing will only support the type for another decade or so. Also other dynamics at play.
Zaft – “If anything financially speaking it better to move resources away from the MKM to the Kuwaiti hornet”.
On paper yes but in reality we are short of airframes. Meeting operational and training needs with just 18 Flankers and 8 Hornets is a major challenge. Getting the Kuwaiti Hornets is intended to ease the numbers issue but retiring the Flankers would exacerbate, not ease it.
Zaft – “as capable as our neighbours grippen E, viper and Rafale without breaking the banks”
A fallacy. As has been explained the RSAF and RTAF operate things at a systems centric not platform centric level.
Romeo – “As we speak today, after the 1st batch 18 units of FA50 are delivered, the gov and RMAF must look for a new MRCA available out there to be delivered before”
We also need to get a follow on batch of F/A-50s, failure to do that means we will again be in a neither gte not there situation, a bit of everything but not enough of anything.
Romeo – “The germany also drops the F35”
Germany is part of the European security superstructure and the RMAF is not the Lufwaffe.
@joe
The engine like the airframe doesn’t last that long. Upgrading those would risk ourselves a CAATSA or jumping through hoop by sourcing it from either India or China or both.
Even then the avionics is a bit old, if USAF have problems to justify spending money on upgrading the F22 due to it *limited number of 200ish airframe what more the MKM with 18 example and only 5 of those are flyable.
Even if we solve that then we would have a problem with expandable. Buying missile may get us yet another’s CAATSA and after doing all that while we are in a pinch the russian may like France during the Falklands war decide to stop supplies due to geopolitical reasons.
The classic hornet meanwhile can be upgraded to a GaN AESA, sniper pod without us having to pay a single dime for R&D, it use the same expandable as the FA50. Not only it’s provide a economic of scale which keep the cost down the expandable providers seem to be reliable or at least share the same common security interests and have lots of money to throw into our economy.
In general it’s such a no brainer move to put the MKM in an *active reserve status as soon as possible and use the resources be it money or manpower to take in the extra hornet into service. And as far as bean counter are concerned it’s cost them around the same amount of money and no extra allocations are needed.
As for the MRCA5G the bean counter likely only have to makes promises during RMK13 no money needed to be spend during the period, then they only need to pay 15% down payments during RMK14, buy a squadron (or only 8 for conversion fighter usage) by RMK 15 then buy more airframe delivered in RMK 16. maybe some more airframes alongside more ordinance by RMK 17.
Zaft – “In general it’s such a no brainer move to put the MKM in an *active reserve status as soon as possible”.
Can’t and won’t be done for reasons explained.
Zaft – “The engine like the airframe doesn’t last that long”
Also the gears and various other components. A lower TBO and MTBF, which is why although we both both “cheap” in the long run the Hornet is way more cost effective. On the Flanker the thrust vector also needs servicing and parts.
@Zaft
The airframe is still in good condition as we tend to park them in hangars. Similarly the MIGS had quite some life left in them but the reason we retired was because the engines needed major overhaul/replacement.
Anyhow the avionics inside MKM aint obsoleted either (moreso vs our Hornets), as its from a newer generation of jets, and its also chockful of Western electronics. Its PESA radar is still miles more powerful than Hornet unless we go with latest AESA upgrade (but costly).
Given that we ordered the Flanker in 2002 [?] and that some of the avionics/electronics were from that period or even from the late 1990’s I would hazard a guess that in the near future certain things might not be supportable.
We also don’t know what’s currently operable and what isn’t. We see Fkankers flying but the MAWS or something wide might not be operable. Similar to ships at sea. They can put to sea but we have no idea of one generator isn’t working or the nav radar is down. The Hornets at least have received certain upgrades, unlike the Flankers.
Personally I don’t foresee that either the bean counter nor the politicians are in any mode to increase the defence spending.
Thus the balls is in RMAF court. they can keep both type of MRCA flying but at the cost of the hornet *lethality. Or double down on the hornet by gradually abandoning the MKM.
FeFew have any illusions that the budget will be increased. For starters though we can try to ensure that we get better value for what we spend, we haven’t for a long time. Given the politics or national interests that takes precedence over ensuring the MAF gets the capabilities needs and the tax payer his/her Ringgit’s worth, that’s asking for too much I suppose.
BTW it’s not the “Hornet’s lethality” as you put it but the limited numbers which is the issue. We can prematurely retire anything until or unless there is a replacement. Putting aside the MRCA requirement and the Kuwait Hornets for which we have no idea as to the current status, we need to follow through as planned with a follow on F/A-50 order. Failure to do that means we will be in a neither here nor there situation, again.
Zaft – ” the russian may like France during the Falklands war decide to stop supplies due to geopolitical reasons”
France stopped supplies but whilst the war was ongoing technicians/trainers for the Super Etandard were still there. A good example would be France embargoing arms sales to Israel at one period in the 1960’s.
Zaft – ” Buying missile may get us yet another’s CAATSA”
Or not. They are very selective with it. It may result in us getting flak from the EU though. We can’t afford to unecessarily annoy the EU given the level of trade and investment.
Zaft _”f USAF have problems to justify spending money on upgrading the F22 due to it *limited number of 200ish airframe what more the MKM with 18 example and only 5 of those are flyable”
An entirely different situation, diffrent dynamics at play.
Zaft – “Either the American don’t want to sell us one”
The security considerations aside, if they feel that a country does not have the needed infrastructure and is not ready, they won’t sell the F-35, e.g. Thailand which is designated a non NATO ally of the U.S. In contrast Singapore which is not designated a non NATO ally of the U.S. was granted approval.
“have received certain upgrades, unlike the Flankers.”
Whether that certain is comprehensive enough to keep other systems in operations or not. Just as doubts cast on some of the MKM systems, its also possible that some of Hornet systems may have been out of order due to fact that its avionics predates even much earlier. The Hornet are undergoing SLEP so im unsure if its also comprehensive enough to give it that ‘jump’ over MKM (which also undergoing SLEP?).
“FeFew have any illusions that the budget will be increased”
The only way we can improve the value what we buy without increasing the budget is by improving our dirt poor currency rate vs say USD. At RM 15Bil we can only afford a third of what we can buy vs what SGD $15Bil could buy simply because when both converts to USD -the currency of global purchase- you get USD $3.3Bil vs USD $11Bil. You see how much value you can get with a stronger currency here? Thats what the Govt IS NOT doing!
“Whether that certain is comprehensive enough to keep other systems in operations or not”
My statement was in reference to the fact that the Flankers are still using avionics/components designed from the 1990’s which might have to be replaced or are already inoperable [we don’t know] but the Hornets have received certain things as part of the upgrade, e.g. new IFF, sofrware upgrades, etc.
“The Hornet are undergoing SLEP so im unsure if its also comprehensive enough to give it that ‘jump’ over”
I will just say that the Hornets have greater servicibility and the RMAF has much more confidence in it, even before the upgrades.