SHAH ALAM: LMS Batch 2, Its Turkiye. Defence Minister DSU Mohamad Hasan told Parliament today that he will be going to Turkiye soon to negotiate the procurement of the Littoral Mission Ship Batch 2. He said that the Prime Minister had ordered him to go Turkiye to speak with his counterpart and the country’s defence procurement to register Malaysia’s interest to purchase from them the LMS Batch 2.
Prime Minister DS Anwar Ibrahim when presenting the 2023 budget on February 24 announced that the LMS Batch 2 procurement is included in the Defence Ministry’s allocation. In the post, Malaysian Defence stated that the LMS Batch 2 will be procured from either Turkiye or South Korea.
From Air Times:
KUALA LUMPUR, 8 Mac – Menteri Pertahanan, Datuk Seri Utama Mohamad Hasan menyatakan beliau akan ke Turkiye bagi mengadakan rundingan dengan pihak kerajaan negara itu berhubung perolehan Kapal Misi Pesisir Batch 2 (Littoral Mission Ship Batch 2, LMSB2).
Menurut Tok Mat, perolehan LMSB2 adalah dibuat melalui urusan kerajaan dengan kerajaan (Government-to-Government).
“Saya diarahkan oleh Perdana Menteri untuk pergi ke Turkiye. Untuk berunding dengan rakan sejawatan saya dan juga agensi pertahanan negara di sana untuk kita mendaftarkan interest cadangan kita,
“Dan kita lihat bagaimana perundingan ini boleh kita buat segerakan agar perolehan LMSB2 dibuat secara telus yang mungkin,
“Kita tidak akan menggunakan 3rd party tetapi urusan antara kerajaan dengan kerajaan,” katanya semasa menyampaikan Penggulungan Belanjawan Tahun 2023 (Peringkat Dasar) Kementerian Pertahanan di Dewan Rakyat.
Beliau menegaskan adalah penting untuk memastikan Tentera Laut Diraja Malaysia (TLDM) dapat LMSB2 dalam keadaan baik dan tepat pada masanya.
Menyentuh keputusan kerajaan untuk memperolehi LMSB2, Menteri Pertahanan menyatakan ianya adalah satu keputusan yang tepat pada masanya.
“Keputusan Kerajaan memperuntukkan bajet bagi perolehan LMSB2 ini merupakan satu keputusan yang tepat,
“Ini memandangkan keperluan TLDM untuk menambah aset maritim baharu bagi memastikan kedaulatan dan keselamatan maritim negara sentiasa terpelihara,” katanya.
Menyentuh kelengkapan persenjataan LMSB2, Menteri Pertahanan mengesahkan ianya akan dilengkapi dengan dilengkapi misil anti permukaan dan misil anti udara.
Tambahnya, penambahan LMSB2 akan memperkasakan lagi keupayaan TLDM dalam mempertahankan kedaulatan dan keselamatan maritim negara. -airtimes.my
From the report above, the Defence Minister did not identify the ship to be procure though it is likely to be the Ada class corvette to be chosen. Why? It fits the bill for the LMS Batch 2 as specified by the RMN – a ship about 80 to 99 metres in length and equipped with surface-to-surface missiles and anti-missiles apart from its other armaments (76mm main gun and 30mm guns).
More importantly, Turkey is building them currently for export customers including Pakistan and Ukraine. Perhaps, we could even get Turkiye to persuade Ukraine to pass on to Malaysia the first of four Ada-class corvettes already launched last December. It is not like Ukraine can use the ship for its intended purpose now. Ukraine can use the money we paid for the ships to buy other weapons that could be delivered to the country. That said it could be more expensive than getting Turkiye to built our ships from the ground-up though it will cut the delivery time to RMN by three years.
That said it is still not clear whether Turkiye is the only option or whether the government will be looking at other countries as well. China is unlikely though even though it can offer us the cheapest options.
— Malaysian Defence
It was always either going to be Turkey or South Korea and not Germany with a Meko A100 derivative as certain others speculated. The good news is that we’ve done away with nonsensical notions of local production. Not that BNS is in a position.
Another good news..Thanks..BTW Mr Marhalim..is there any official news or statement about the delivery of seven (7) 8×8 Volvo recovery vehicle and three (3) (if I’m not mistaken) 8×8 Scania XT R460 HEMTT? Just noticed the news in socmed.
Rock – three (3) (if I’m not mistaken) 8×8 Scania XT R460 HEMTT?
Before this Marhalim has posted about this procurement. If I’m not mistaken, Army received it with the new RBR-7 RPG from Serbia and some other stuff
Alhamdulillah hopefully not just 3 till the end. sikit-sikit lama-lama jadi bukit.
Well as you said, Marhalim, the more the merrier. But going with a direct nego doesn’t that mean an abrogation of Anwar’s statement about future purchases thru open tenders?
Or has the tender already completed and nobody was informed about the selection?
Trying to get the Ukraine corvettes would be bad idea, the CMS & mainly other systems are unfamiliar to us, the 1st boat is being fitted out with US weapons (ie Harpoon) which we will need to get Congress approval to buy as part of the ship or else a costly strip and replacement plus integration with ASM of our preference.
And just because we went with a foreign shipbuilder, still doesn’t mean we will agree to full constructed in their OEM yard. If BNS unable to get their acts in order, there are other yards around (*looking at Destini & THHE…).
If its GtG agreement not need for open tender, just need the RFI/RFP. No lah, the Ada-class are designed from the start with the Havelsan Advent CMS which is also fitted on the Ukrainian boat. They have already done integration with the Harpoon and ATMACA missiles. The ATMACA missiles are from Turkey so it’s simply just putting them into the ship. I think for the first of three of class it will be done overseas, perhaps the follow-on ships will be done locally. Destini has just small yard.
It says register interest. At ministerial level without a formal RFP issued, its more like go speak with counterpart and see what Turkey can offer (e.g. as a package, industry ToT, financing, local support, enhancing industry collaboration, etc). A similar engagement with the Koreans would be expected if not already during the LCA deal.
”which we will need to get Congress approval”
Which will not be hard [unlikely though that we’ll order it] to get given we already have Harpoon and that we’re not in Uncle Sam’s bad books so to speak. If anything they’d be happy we’re buying American. Ideally the class would be armed with NSM but as always integration and certification issues would arise.
” still doesn’t mean we will agree to full constructed in their OEM yard. If BNS unable to get their acts in order”
As it stands the intention is to get all 3 constructed abroad and if the ships are ordered BNS will not be involved as it’s via another local yard.
kel – ”It says register interest.”
A political decision has already been made to buy the Batch2 s from that Turk yard.
kel – ”A similar engagement with the Koreans would be expected if not already during the LCA deal.”
Any ToTs; offsets, etc, has already been worked out with KAI who has BTW said Malaysians will be at the KAI plant to monitor production [as is commonplace]. The good news is we didn’t go with the offer for local assembly.
hi Marhalim. Did you read the latest news about Kuwaiti\’s used F/A 18c/d? Turns out we did sent out letter of inquiry to them about 3 times already but got no answer from them so far. This revelation from our current Menhan gave us a bit of hope that the plan to acquire those F/A 18c/d would prevail.
Knowing Malaysian styles. no need lah the “ToT” whatsoever.. it will just throwing out unnecessary tax payer money… It will be better is we include the “Maintenance Specialty” to the G2G contracts.. andd special price for parts and replacement..
“GtG agreement”
Wasn’t what Anwar has committed to. GtG doesn’t help to prevent controversy as the Scorpene buy had shown.
“Havelsan Advent CMS”
Is a system we never had nor used prior. Integrating that with our existing armory for Exocet or NSM will be added cost. Adas also use a different engine powertrain that TLDM prefers (RENK instead of MTU). Integrating MTU engines will add further costs.
“intention is to get all 3 constructed abroad”
Intentions can always change as what Mahathir did with LMS1.
“BNS will not be involved”
With the privatisation, BNS will be a Govt owned yard so it has vested interest to give it work as part of national policy. Of course the more likely candidate would be another yard with the mess BNS is in, but stranger things had happen. THHE yard, currently in progress with 83mtr OPV, could likely fit the LMS2.
“Malaysians will be at the KAI plant to monitor production”
Yeah in other words paid by taxpayer holidays to Korea. Some might even stay long enough to pickup Korean wives.
@Mr. Hyde
If you know Malaysian style, TOT will always be top of the list.
Yes I saw it, I am waiting for Hansard before writing about it
Actually, I hope it’s the Atmaca missile. The Harpoon is a very old design and even the Turks are replacing their Harpoons with the Atmaca.
One question to everyone: I am not fully up to date with discussions about the LCS but if we do not build the 6th LCS, can we get 2 Ada class LMSs for the same price? Can someone do the maths? Is it possible?
Nishi – ”This revelation from our current Menhan gave us a bit of hope that the plan to acquire those F/A 18c/d would prevail.”
Before you start beating the congratulatory drums bear in mind that getting U.S. export approval is a long tedious cumbersome process involving the Department of Defence; State Department and others.
Hyde- ”no need lah the “ToT” whatsoever.. ”
Just as sure as you’ll breathe tomorrow; they will be some form of offsets which will probably include a ToT. It’s become the norm. Whether the ToT actually leads to any tangible benefits is the question but a different topic.
If it’s a new build then going for G2G without open tender just mean we totally didn’t learn our lesson.
If it to acquire the Ukrainian ship then sure. Obviously we are going to pull another LCS & change the SSM & SAM which would cost a whole lot of money. Thought it is probably acceptable as it mean getting the ship faster.
Thought I Wonder if Ukrainian would accept MIG & some russian missiles for the compensation on top of cash.
Azlan “As it stands the intention is to get all 3 constructed abroad and if the ships are ordered BNS will not be involved as it’s via another local yard.”
Then who going to pay for the debt of the Kedah & LCS? What happened to the yard workers, what happened to the knowledge they gain if there’s no follow up order?
Again, the Ada class corvette is optimised for Atmaca/Harpoon and RAM. So it will not be that much trouble with the missiles. Taxpayers, of course, and that will be case even if the second batch of LMS Batch 2 is built by BNS
Much of the controversy over the Scorpene was due to the selection of the sub-systems and later on the training contract which was not part of the GTG.
zaft – ”I Wonder if Ukrainian would accept MIG & some russian missiles for the compensation on top of cash.”
Think… Given that we still maintain cordial elations with Russia and have spoken out about the war but nothing beyond that [like every regional country]; do you figure we’ll actually do as you propose?
Zaft – ”Then who going to pay for the debt of the Kedah & LCS?”
The Malaysian taxpayer will pay as always when things go shite. Obvious question deserves an obvious answer. As for the workers; same question can be asked of SME [I know but won’t say more in a public forum] forum happens to ATSC when the Flankers ar retired in the future?
zaft – ”what happened to the knowledge they gain if there’s no follow up order?”
You really want to know or is this a rhetorical question? I’m really surprised you’re seemingly surprised. ”What happened to the knowledge they gain” with the Adnan and AV-8? Deftech didn’t sell the number of Adnans it needed and it sure as hell hasn’t achieved the same with the AV-8. What happened to the skilled workforce after the NGOPV cockup? I can ask more rhetorical questions…
You previously mentioned something silly about how many does the Malaysian army needs in comparison with what Australia has. Well, the army has a paper requirement for ‘X’ number and Deftech has to sell ‘X’ number in order to totally recoup its costs and generate a healthy profit but since when has such issues ensured consistency/continuity in line with a well planned and thought of long term plan?
” Some might even stay long enough to pickup Korean wives.”
Who knows some might pass what they’ve learn to North Korea or other nefarious actors or might engage in sabotage or organised crime after absconding from work and blending in with South Korean society. There might even be a National Liberation Front of Corsica
cell ready to recruit Malaysian workers who are there courtesy of the Malaysian taxpayer.
”TLDM prefers (RENK instead of MTU). Integrating MTU engines will add further costs.”
Quite a few RMN ships are actually powered by MTU engines which has had a long presence here. The Kedahs are powered by Caterpillars.
Joe – BNS is already a government shipyard as its parent is owned by the government – BNS is a GLC. The company is technically a private company owned by a listed company (BHIC) which itself is owned by another listed company (Boustead). After all the frustration with the national interest policy, its surprising to read the need to protect BNS. BNS already has its maintenance contracts and the LCS. Its more important for BNS to fix what’s on its plate then take on new orders. What about Destini, another government shipyard which is still struggling to get the MMEA OPVs delivered? Should they be saved as well by giving them new contracts? Every dollar used to bailout is one less dollar for new equipment.
MMEA OPV is build TH Heavy Engineering. It used to be the JV with Destini but THHE has bought all the shares for the JV. Destini was always privately owned. THHE was formally owned by Tabung Haji. It is now a MOF company
Tom Tom – ”Actually, I hope it’s the Atmaca missile. The Harpoon is a very old design”
I doubt we’ll order Harpoon but if we do lets look at the factors at play.
– Harpoon is ”old” but so what? There are new Blocks operated. If we go on the ”old” argument Hornets are old and the ubiquitous M2 HMG dates back almost 80 years.
– Atmaca is operated by the Turks and maybe a couple of others but Harpoon is widely operated. If things got dicey there are stocks of Harpoon in Guam and Japan; how long will it take us to get Atmaca reloads?
– We already have MM-40’s and if things go to plan we’ll have NSM in service. Why add another type into the mix? Every missiles requires its own training and support infrastructure [spares and test equipment needed]; all this equates to more resources being needed and more money.
Kelvin – ”BNS already has its maintenance contracts and the LCS.”
Yes. It does not have the space or the workforce and if the Turk corvette is ordered it will be via another company not BNS.
Kelvin – ”Every dollar used to bailout is one less dollar for new equipment.”
Agreed but again politics and also practicality come into play. Even if we put aside the key fact that BNS is government owned; it’s still the largest or most active naval refit yard in the country. It going under will have an immediate impact. On the subject of bailouts what about SME? It’s laid of some staff and has lost several key bread and butter contracts – cheaper and faster to source various types of ammo off the shelf from abroad. What next for SMe?
@TomTom
“Actually, I hope it’s the Atmaca missile”
Great. And then we will have 3 different SSM missiles to keep & maintain, add in TUDM’s Harpoon and we’ll have 4 types of ASM.
“Who knows some might pass what they’ve learn to North Korea”
DPRK would not be so welcoming to Malaysians after what they did at KLIA and our arrest and later the haggling release of their ‘agents’.
@Zaft
“Ukrainian would accept MIG & some russian missiles”
Like the US hardware, we also need to get Russian approval to sell our Russian stuff even those we had retired. Russian missiles are still useful for our MKM.
@Kelvin
“its surprising to read the need to protect BNS”
If you read the history of the upteen times our Govt had to rescue and resuscitate Proton over & over again, you’ll know the Govt will do all it can to save one of their entities. I would not be surprised if TOT were to happen and if not BNS, it will be to another Govt owned yard.
We are not maintaining the missiles, they are what we called the wooden-round concept. They are kept in the armouries and installed on the launchers (for ships and planes) when they are needed and returned to the armouries for safe keeping. Once they reached their end of service lives, they are simply kept in the armouries until they disposal.
“end of service lives, … until they disposal.”
IINM I recalled that we did have to renew the time expired propellant & batteries in Exocets
That was in the 90s, they were sent out overseas for that job, not much maintenance otherwise.
”I recalled that we did have to renew the time expired propellant”
First to Aerospatiale as it was known then and later to Pakistan [a certified facility in Karachi].
There is little maintenance per see but every now and then certain things have to be checked and people have to be trained.
We still have to monitor these 2 components condition, but this was the maintain that I was mentioning. Its only due to Exocet family longevity that we could relive them many years later. I am not so sure for those relatively obscures like Atmaca.
Due to current Ukraine/Russia crisis, it is best to decide at a later date as the energy crisis, raw materials and etc may affect the ultimate costs at the end of the day. Further to that, can we be e assured of the future availability of spares for maintenance?
Due to current Ukraine/Russia crisis, it is best to decide at a later date as the energy crisis, raw materials and etc may affect the ultimate costs at the end of the day. Further to that, can we be e assured of the future availability of spares for maintenance?
“Its only due to Exocet family longevity that we could relive them many years”
All ASMs have roughly the same lifespan depending on how they’re stored and other things. The first to go are the circuitry and the booster. This is unlike the case with MANPADs where the first to go are usually the batteries which can however be substituted with commercial ones.
KC Joseph – “Further to that, can we be e assured of the future availability of spares for maintenance”
That’s a broad question. Are we under sanctions? Are our ports under a blockade? Are we depending on a large OEM which has stocks of something widely operated? Are we ordering from someone who has large number of back orders? Depends…
“All ASMs have roughly the same lifespan depending on how they’re stored”
Family longevity as in the series are still being produced & maintained to date. Which the Exocets are since the 1980s and so far there isn’t a replacement on the horizon so as long as newer missiles are being produced, older earlier gen missiles could technically be constantly relived over & over. Some of its age peers, like Sea Skua, has already been phased out so any options for its relive (if there is one) would soon be limited.
With Anwar and Erdogan being buddies hopefully they could sell us the ship at friendly prices
”Anwar and Erdogan being buddies”
Since they’re ”buddies” who knows; maybe he might give us a 80 percent discount; the rest payable over a 800 period.. Seriously? If they give us a ”friendly price” you reckon other prospective buyers will ask the same? Then what?
I keep hearing about this ”buddies” thing but ultimately it’s a commercial transaction. All it requires is a decision to buy and the ability to pay after a mutual agreement has been reached. The Turks are eager to sell; have been trying to sell to us for a while now and they know what makes us tick. The ”buddy” thing doesn’t even have to enter the equation : Erdogan and Anwar are respectively ”buddies” with many individuals.
Commercial decision but…
Not ‘friend’ing Erdogan = pay 100%
Somewhat ‘friend’ing Erdogan = pay 90%
Anwar best ‘friend’ Erdogan = pay 80%
Discount 20% ok wat! Its what this PM is good for right? While we’re at it I hope he can also get best ‘friend’ prices for F35 from his Uncle Sam best buddy.
Technically we are attempting to buy ships from the Ukrainian rather than the Turks.
Supposedly the Ukrainian ship is equipped with VLS. It’s amazing how the LMS goes from a gunboat to lightly arms corvette to full fledged corvette.
Except that even in offical statements in parliament we heard of the name “Turkiye” and “rakan” in one sentence so…
Besides whilst this isn’t exactly Turkish official policy, companies like Bayraktar (of which is under Erdogan unofficial list of cabal) already stated that they will not sell their stuff to India and Russia, and these two countries are pretty neutral to Russia, not like Armenia and Greece
So yeah you need to be buddies with erdogan to get access to the latest turkish stuff
Nope, we are buying ships from Turkiye. It was I who suggested that we buy the Ukrainian ship built by Turkiye as the ship is already launched and being commissioned. This would shortened the delivery time tremendously. I am not purview to the plan by Mindef currently on the Turkish ships
@marhalim
PM-X has been quite active in international relationship compared to his predecessors. So I won’t be surprised if the Ukrainian ship is what he set his eyes on.
If it’s to buy something new, then I’m afraid G2G are just convenience excuses for the political cabal to win back power to monopolies equipment selection and renegade from their earlier promise of open tender & multi ministry tender selection committee.
Dundun – “we heard of the name “Turkiye” and “rakan” in one sentence so”
So? We’ve been “rakan” with various countries over the years
Dundun – “So yeah you need to be buddies with erdogan to get access to the latest turkish stuff”
No. As long as one is not from a country that would make it l politically contentious for the Turks to sell to; they will sell. One does not have to be “buddies”, “rakan”, “mates” or “chums”.
Also, amidst all this talk about being “buddies”; we’ve always had close ties with the Turks; way before Anwar became a player of some significance. The decision to buy Adnan was due to Mahathir who based it on national interests [wasn’t the army which selected it as zaft incorrectly claimed]. A former Turk Foreign Minister is even a UIA graduate; we didn’t vote against Turkey when it invaded Cyprus and Turkey has long tried to use as a jumping off point in the region.
Zaft – “It’s amazing how the LMS goes from a gunboat to lightly arms corvette to full fledged corvette”
I’m highly “amazed” you’re “amazed” because if you have been paying attention you’d realise that the intention was always to get fully fitted out Batch 2s and what on earth is a “full fledged corvette” as opposed to a “lightly arms” one? Look up the traditional roles corvettes performed and how they operate. The Batch 2s will be modestly armed.
Also, look up the definition of a “gunboat” and no it isn’t a gun only armed ship.
No, as mentioned by Tok Mat himself it was to get rid of agents that’s why they went the GTG route. They will tell the SSB – The Turkish government procurement agency – what they want – the ship’s physical dimensions and major equipment etc and the SSB will give them the ship design and appropriate things from Turkish suppliers. If they do not make the equipment, they will give a list of vendors for MY to decide on them. SSB will then appoint a shipbuilder and buy the equipment as specified by MY and then the shipbuilding will start.
PMX may have plenty of friends, but I doubt he is friendly with the Ukrainians who were off MY radar for the last five years or so due to our friendly relations with Russia even with the shooting down of the Malaysia Airlines 777. It will be up to SSB and the Turkish government to talk with the Ukrainians if they want MY to get the first ship ASAP. Otherwise, a completely new built ship will take at least four years from keel laying and commissioning. Unless it’s a gun only ship like the LMS.
@ Marhalim
My problems with the G2G is it seem they proposing A limited tenders from hand selected list of countries or even from a single country which goes against the very purposes of an open tender.
With limited most importantly hand picked or even single source supplier how do we can confidently said they give the best most cost effective solution? If you have a monopoly or oligopoly then there’s really no incentive to be ‘cost effective’.
Agents imho are not the major problems they are there as facilitators. To facilitate transfer of public wealth to individuals most often time fellow politicians. How do they identify the country where they wanted to purchased? If anything it open for abuse as only country that can help facilitate such wealth transfer be selected.
How would a politician hand pick vendors would fit into the military designed ‘needs’ seem if the military want from 1 country but the politicians wanted asset from another then it just either mean the military need to compromised on the specifications that doesn’t fulfill their overall needs or expensive 100% markup one off customized variant as usual.
How exactly would G2G help with our inabilities to commit to purchased the successive batch to improve asset rationalisation? If anything the moment new administration goes in they going to cancel the old deals just as always.
Obviously open tender are open for abuse but the door are a lot more tighter than a limited tenders. And if only 1 country is picked for G2G programme. Then that just direct award but with different name.
Personally to me this whole proposal just sounds a whole lot like a corporate rebranding exercise. Nothing really changed its the same old thing but with a brand new names.
Azlan “The decision to buy Adnan was due to Mahathir who based it on national interests [wasn’t the army which selected it as zaft incorrectly claimed]”
Fell free to show when I claimed as such. Also as for your earlier claimed, I never speculated that meko would be chosen. I only say meko is the most obvious cost effective solution. Obviously the most cost effective solution won’t win because obviously. Right?
Azlan “Also, look up the definition of a “gunboat” and no it isn’t a gun only armed ship.”
Individual who obsessed with terms & nuance shouldn’t confused legitimate national interest with personal interest & corruption right?
zaft – ””Individual who obsessed with terms & nuance”
What about individuals who hit the keypad without bothering to check what they’re saying and who keep spewing nonsense as if they’re on hallucinogens?
zaft – ” shouldn’t confused legitimate national interest with personal interest & corruption right?”
You mean you actually have a point to make and aren’t going off track or tangent again?
Going to talk about something else non germane like inflation in Egypt in the post War of Attrition period? Or claim the army wants laser cannons designed in Jamaica and manufactured in Emeperor Ming’s factory instead of a 155mm SPH?
zaft – ”Fell free to show when I claimed as such”
– ”They hired deftech for 2 decades for Adnan & gempita”
– ”Army screwed themselves by wanting to go shopping for something else rather than more lipanbara.”
– ”The 1% of GDP per annum is NOT MAF birth right.”
Assuming you’re the same ”zaft ” who wrote the nonsense [which was rebutted[ and not an imposter or a troll. You don’t have voices telling you things do you?
zaft – ”I only say meko is the most obvious cost effective solution. ”
Nonsense again based on assumptions you make. ”Cost effective” only in your mind. The RMN desires something more economical to operate than the Meko A100; something also with lesser manning levels and since you’re unaware; there are reasons why we won’t work with the German Group anymore.