SHAH ALAM: Prime Minister DS Anwar Ibrahim announced that the LMS Batch 2 will be procured with funds from the 2023 national budget, he tabled in Parliament (February 24) today. He did not say how many ships will be funded, but RMN had stated previously, it wanted at least three ships in the current RMK12.
Defence Minister DSU Mohamad Hasan told Parliament on February 22 that negotiations were being conducted with several countries under the government-to-government concept to choose the best platform for LMS Batch 2 project. The ships – to be equipped with SSM and SAM – are expected to be built in the country selected to ensure that the vessels be completed on time and under budget.
Malaysian Defence was told that the allocation for LMS Batch 2 was supposed to be included in the proposed budget last year but it was then reallocated to another project altogether.
As for the national security sector budget, Anwar said the Home Ministry was allocated a budget of RM18.5 billion (an increase of some RM200 million from the one that was not passed) while the Defence Ministry allocation is pegged at RM17.7 billion (RM300 million more from the one that was not passed).In US dollar terms, the Defence budget is at $3.987 billion which is the same as the budget for 2022. The defence allocation is also likely be around 0.98 per cent of the 2023 GDP projections. As both ministries are part of the national security sector, it is unlikely we will get a two percent allocation for defence. The combined allocation of both ministries in the national security sector, is at two per cent.
According to the budget documents the Defence Operational Expenditure (OE) is RM11.4 billion compared to RM11.1 billion figure in 2022, an increase of some RM300 million. The Development Expenditure is RM6.3 billion, an increase of some RM1.3 billion from the same allocation in 2022 (RM5 billion).
OE for Home Ministry is slated at RM13.8 billion (RM13.5 billion, 2022) while DE is at RM4.7 billion compared to 2022 allocation of RM3.5 billion. As expected, the police are getting the bulk of the DE money, some RM2.2 billion while the Malaysian Maritime Enforcement Agency (MME) is getting RM718 million compared to RM124 million in 2022.
As for the Armed Forces DE, the Army is getting RM 1 billion; RMN RM1.7 billion; RMAF RM1.6 billion and Joint Force Command RM778 million. The bulk of the money for the services are for the procurement of assets while the rest for construction of various facilities. Funds for quarters is listed at RM877 million.
— Malaysian Defence
Tentatively this is a good start. We’ll see who what and where get to build these 3 ships then. I’ll even say Yes to India if that gets the ship completed! ☺️
I do hope all LMS will be built in the country of origin using G2G model. Any idea which model for the LMS?
Excellent indeed. If at least 2 LCS ships can be completed, RMN could add between 4 to 5 large surface combatants to its fleet in the next 6 to 7 years. Repeat the order in the next RMK, and that adds a total of 8 to 10 large surface combatant in the next 14 years. Visibility for RMN fleet planning.
So we can conclude that LMS Batch 2 is a corvette class warship?
No idea at the moment but my guess it will either from Turkey or South Korea
What ships can Turkey and Korea offer us in this class? Also, on Wikipedia it says that RMN is currently undergoing a \’15-to-5\’ modernization programme. Can anyone share what this means?
No idea at the moment but my guess it will either from Turkey or South Korea
(Tuan Marhalim)
I guess two thirds here will agree with you. Turkey and South Korea seem to be churning out weapons like a Toyota assembly line.
I doubt it would be Turkish nor Korean since their ship utilities their domestic SAM,SSM & CMS. Retrofitting it to put other type of SSM,SAM & CMS is just a repeat of LCS. meanwhile buying ship with said country domestic SSM,SAM,CMS which is different from LCS is just a repeat of PM4 era zoo of equipment denying RMN commonalities & thus cost efficiency.
Best bet is that it would comes from one of the north sea states as those countries mostly utilizes TACTICOS, shoot American missiles which seem like the MO of what RMN would have wanted. So My guess it would either be a meko A100 or a sigma.
Meko A100 is probably the most interesting as we can essentially rolled out the upgrade of the A100 series into the Kedah when or if we decide to rehulled it.
way to go Malaysia Madani, let’s change for the betterment of our nation together, towards fully independent and fully developed nation in terms of everything, from defence to food security, and free from corruption and bad old middle man habits and culture that had spoilt the progress of the nation.
Seriously if we do not face any major issue sailings the existing LMS. Why not stick with the original plan
https://www.malaysiandefence.com/ships-update-lms-and-lcs/amp/
As the current LMS are not equipped with guided weapons and we don’t want to be beholden to China. RMN took the China LMS as it was the only ship that the then government was willing to pay for.
Zaft – “I doubt it would be Turkish nor Korean since their ship utilities their domestic SAM,SSM & CMS”.
As it stands there is a major possibility it will be South Korean or Turkish and one can also specify Westesn stuff. There is the political and cost angle here.
Zaft – “Meko A100 is probably the most interesting”.
For reasons relating to the NGOPV As well as other reasons we are unlikely to go German again.
Zaft – “Retrofitting it to put other type of SSM,SAM & CMS is just a repeat of LCS”
No it isnt. The major issues we faced with the LCS were not these issues you’ve alluded to.
“So My guess it would either be a meko A100 or a sigma.”
I feel EU palm oil market penetration factor is a big issue for MY to go for A100 or sigma.
Lalok – “everything, from defence to food security”
Have the practitioners of “,Malaysia Madani” given any indication they intend on revamping the defence policy and introduce deeprooted and holistic reforms? No and they won’t. Will the new PM devote more attention to foreign policy and defence issues or will he be stuck mainly on domestic issues like his past 4 predecessors?
Unlikely.
Lalok – “old middle man”
The issue of local agents is ingrained in the system; institutionalised. It will not go away.
Just don’t go with Boustead!
There’s plenty of other countries that could build the ship for us, from the Netherlands to Italy to Japan
We cannot go with Boustead as the yard is full
Payments are always staggered, with an upfront payment agreed upon by both parties once the contract is signed.So for the FA-50 contract it is likely that the government is obligated to pay 10 percent or RM400 million within the next few months. The bulk of the payment will be done upon delivery of the said aircraft, which will also be staggered. This will be the same for the LMS Batch 2. As for the LCS, it is likely also that the payment will be staggered as well.
Of course, but I don’t think the list is more than three. Japan will only be in the picture if we want to buy the Mogami class frigate. Personally, I think it’s the best option for a frigate out there apart from the Babcock 140
Hope the gomen continue with the DWP that they initiated in the first round and continue to develop the armed forces as planned, albeit a little distraction and blunder somewhere through implementing it.
Let the corrupts suffer and taste the aftermath of their bad deeds , and whoever wish to continue with the old habits of living lavishly thru commision,, continue be punished severely.
nimitz “I feel EU palm oil market penetration factor is a big issue for MY to go for A100 or sigma”
Not necessarily as there are a few key issues in which our interest is aligned with the west.
1) we had already max out on palm oil plantation. So limiting forest clearance goes a long way to increasing the palm oil price which is good for us but not so much for ID.
2) we are under domestic pressure to increase wages & thus reduce foreign workers dependency. PM-X just announced that sime Darby going to employ full local workforce with wages at min MYR3k.
Azlan “For reasons relating to the NGOPV As well as other reasons we are unlikely to go German again”
If not mistaken the shipyard that owned the meko design is currently owned by UAE.
As said before. if we wanted a ship with TACTICOS CMS that shoot US missiles then the North sea states is the only cost effective options as they could offered off the shelf products.
Am not privy to how much it would cost to change the CMS & weaponry but the OZ & Canadian are paying 300% more then the Brits for the type 26.
Lalok “towards fully independent and fully developed nation in terms of everything, from defence to food security”
You can’t be ‘fully’ independent & ‘fully’ developed at the same time. Let take food security for example, palm oil yield RM 600 per acre per month while paddy field yield RM 150 per acre per YEAR. So one can only choose either develop or independent but never both.
Tom tom “Just don’t go with Boustead!”
Then whose going to pay for the debt incurred on the Kedah & maharajalela?
Marhalim “We cannot go with Boustead as the yard is full”
If the LCS plan goes on schedule then BNS do have 3 empty slot on their shipyards by end of next year as LCS1&2 goes on sea trials while LCS6 is axed.
Marhalim “Japan will only be in the picture if we want to buy the Mogami class frigate, Personally I think its the best option for a frigate out there apart from the Babcock 140”
While I do agree that the Mogami & Babcock 140 is probably the best one in term of cost/performance out there. But it Would require RMN to redraw the requirements for the LMS2 thought. Which I hope they do.
But if they don’t & the choice is between ada, Incheon, marthadinata & Saar 6. Then I would choose Saar 6 anytime.
The Saar 6 is the Meko A100 on steroids in terms of weaponry. Size remains the same as the Kedah with half the crew
Zaft – “Not necessarily as there are a few key issues in which our interest is aligned with the west”.
Palm oil accounts for a major portion of our earnings and self interests plays a part. Mahathir is not in power but awarding contracts to countries will also dependent on existing trade with them, as well as other issues. You will note that Anwar raised the palm oil issue with the German President only days ago.
Zaft – “If not mistaken the shipyard that owned the meko design is currently owned by UAE”
TKMS is owned by the UAE? Didn’t know that. Still there are reasons why we won’t go for a GErman design and a Meko100 derivative might be too large for what we have in mind for the LMS Batch 2s.
The reality is that we will either go for a Turk or Korean design due to politics and costing.
Zaft – “As said before. if we wanted a ship with TACTICOS CMS that shoot US missiles then the North sea states is the only cost effective options as they could offered off the shelf products”
As I said before; there are others who can do it. Also, who says we are going for a U.S. missile or even TACTICOS for the LMS Batch 2s?
Zaft – “If the LCS plan goes on schedule then BNS do have 3 empty slot on their shipyards by end of next year as LCS1&2 goes on sea trials while LCS6 is axed”
No. Still hardly the space and doesn’t have the needed skilled labour.
Zaft – “Personally I think its the best option for a frigate”
I’m not into neatly classifying things as there’s a very thin line but the LMS Batch 2s will be in the corvette category; size and displacement.
Zaft – “require RMN to redraw the requirements for the LMS2 thought. Which I hope they do”
We all hope for a lot of things but very slim margin given how tight funds are. I hope we operate UAVs from the Batch 2s and get USVs and UUVs in order to transition the RMN but the reality is not likely.
zaft- You can’t be ‘fully’ independent & ‘fully’ developed at the same time. Let take food security for example, palm oil yield RM 600 per acre per month while paddy field yield RM 150 per acre per YEAR. So one can only choose either develop or independent but never both
i wonder how the dutch and the thais can be successful in their industries, technology and agriculture., not to mention, the other developed countries. if we want to be a developed country, we should start initiating to be one, the time is ripe enough.
IMHO the Meko A-100 may be the best bang for the buck as it share some commonality with existing Kedah class. But i like the Sigma 9113 LMS concept which offered a hybrid diesel-electric engine. Less carbon footprints & will have some imoact on thr zero carbon target by 2050. At least we start now even if its still a hybrid engine. The Sigma 9113 (same as diponegoro class) uses waterjet propulsions and its more modern than the Meko.
I doubt RMN will be very adventurous to try out a new type of engine solution despite it having the experience of a similar system on board the submarines. The current MEKO A100 is more up-to-date than the Sigma 91 as newer vessels from the class, the Israeli Saar 6 were delivered last year. Damen has not sold the Sigma 9113 since the Indonesians bought them.
I will be a spoilsport to say it will be an updated Kedah class, same hull perhaps with modernised superstructure if BNS still harbours the dream of redesigning something. It would save IP cost since we technically owns the design.
Why BNS again? Well how else will they get the money to rescue LCS, which they got the money to rescue Kedah class?
Qamarul-“IMHO the Meko A-100 may be the best bang for the buck as it share some commonality with existing Kedah class.”
I follow this reasoning, can consider Egypt El Fateh class, wil share some commonality with long iiinnncoming LCS, production line is hot…
Wow. Saar 6 class corvette cost around USD500 million per piece & the more for the Brazilian one.
RMN specified the LMS 2 should cost around MYR2.4B for 3 vessels & also mentioned it should be around 85m-100m long, able to achieve 28knot speed,should be equipped with SSM & SAM or point defense system but no torpedo. So in this price range what can the navy get?
If Tuk Mat is urging for a G-to-G solution, it will probably be a Turkish or Korean solution. An LMS is again ‘just’ in the corvette class and we’ll not see a Western European ship design. If we’re talking about new hulls, the Navy’s not in the best position to set terms. They can come up with the general specifications but the government will dictate the purchases. Getting this far with crusty politicians is already a big win. The rest is to be pursued to see if it is honoured.
Azlan “As I said before; there are others who can do it. Also, who says we are going for a U.S. missile or even TACTICOS for the LMS Batch 2s?”
They can do it. But it won’t be cheap. If not mistaken back then the Jose Rizal with tacticos & western missiles aren’t exactly much cheaper than the european offering.
Azlan “No. Still hardly the space and doesn’t have the needed skilled labour”
If you wanted something cheap. Then there’s nothing cheaper than paying for stuff in your own currencies & let those money recirculated back into domestic market creating a multipliers effect.
It expensive they got plenty of stuff on board and further more it is paid by the Germans, so why not.
No, it will not be as BNS is considered now a third party or marketing agent. That is why the GTG approached to cut out the marketing agents. And I said there is no place for BNS to build the ships as the yard in Lumut is full of the LCS.
Marhalim-It expensive they got plenty of stuff on board and further more it is paid by the Germans, so why not.
They installed Iron Dome & their own missile system on the Saar thus make it heavily armed. The german government only paid aroun 115m euros and tkms also will buy 181M dollar worth of Israel goods. But from what what i read the Saar is more like a Braunschweig-class corvette rather than a Meko. If the gov indeed select the korean, which model HHI will offer? Similar to Jose Rizal class with mistral point defense system? If that is so then thre navy can say goodbye to their 15-5 transformation program?
Braunschweig is a Meko but with a different name as it is for Germany and may well have some improvements by the shipyard for its own navy. It is a variant of the Meko A100 which is the name for the export model. Apart from the missile systems, they also put their own radar system as well plenty of EW stuff.
HHI displayed a 99 metre corvette as DSA 2022 for LMS Batch 2.
zaft – ”They can do it. But it won’t be cheap.”
As I said before : who says we are going for a U.S. missile or even TACTICOS for the LMS Batch 2s?” Also, in this day and age; what’s cheap?
zaft – ”If you wanted something cheap.”
You insisted BNS has the space. No it doesn’t; nor the skilled labour to simultaneously work on two progammes. As for ”nothing cheaper than paying for stuff in your own currencies & let those money recirculated back into domestic market creating a multipliers effect” [to qutye you] maybe on a PowerPoint slide where all’s neat and tidy.
In reality look at what happened to SME and how well the Kedah and LCS programmes ran. We ended up paying much more as a penalty for the price of locally run programmes intended to lead to tangible benefits going ratshit.
lalok- ” thais can be successful in their industries, technology and agriculture., not to mention, the other developed countries.”
The Thais sill import a lot of food and if you’ve noticed ”other developed countries” have a lot of issues with ” technology and agriculture”. Not all plain sailing.
lalok – ”we should start initiating to be one, the time is ripe enough.”
We’ve ”initiated” a lot of things over the decades; many led to wasted funds and nothing tangible as far as benefits. Look at what we ”initiated” with our defence policy as part of the move for self efficiency and industralisation. After decades what do we have to show for it? We first have to start with a realistic and holistic policy with a clear view of what we intend on achieving, what we can and the price we’re willing to incur.
Qamarul – ” If that is so then thre navy can say goodbye to their 15-5 transformation program?”
The 5/15 has long ceased being the 5/15 in practice when we ordered the LMS Batch 1s and didn’t intend on anymore. Officially the 5/15 is still being adhered to but not in reality and the RMN never was under illusions thatthe plan would be followed through.
Since RMAF already getting LCA from South Korean now RMN probably getting their LMS or Light Multirole corvette from Turkey, direct dealing from G to G.
RMN as of now cant really afford the like of ADA class from turkiye right as they will cost almost usd 300M pership.3 ADA class will cost almost 1 bill usd or roughly 4+ bill myr..No way they cant afford them ( in reality no way the govt will approve them money )..Better go for HHI’s offering for Phil Navy OPV HDP 2200..95M 2200 Tonnes with main gun + 2 secondary gun for about 80m+ usd each..Or HDP 2400 for about 120 – 150m usd each with ssm + sam
ADA class is full on surface combatants very similar to the gowind 2500. Thus it very capable and thus why it is expensive.
The sigma, HHI HDP is a multirole. The HHI HDP 2200 are cheap but their weapons range are also on the shorts end of the range. HDP 2400 meanwhile doesn’t seem to be that much cheaper than the sigma.
MEKO A100 can be configured as multirole like the Braunschweig or full on combatants like saar6.
Monetary wise, Just because Korean ship in USD conversion rate are cheap doesn’t mean it more affordable to the gov. We have a trade deficit with SK while surplus with EU. So while the price for European products in USD conversion rate is slightly higher the gov may find it more affordable to buy stuff in euro than trying to buy it in won.
Zaft – “ADA class is full on surface combatants very similar to the gowind 2500. Thus it very capable and thus why it is expensive”
No…Things like the grade of steel; level of D.C. standards and other things determine costs: not necessarily because a platform is
“a is full on surface combatant. This is a widely known fact; not because I happen to think it’s true.
Zaft – “MEKO A100 can be configured as multirole like the Braunschweig or full on combatants”
No… It can be configured any way a customer desires based on hull, displacement and internal space limitations.
What pray tell is the difference between a “multirole” and
“full on combatants”?? None. Just a designation. Is a Tico class cruiser which is configured for AA a “multirole” or a “full on combatant”? It can be both as it also has ASuW and ASW capabilities.
Zaft-‘So My guess it would either be a meko A100 or a sigma”
Maybe not both.
What size exactly RMN need?
LMS batch 1 is less than 70 meters.
IMO, 70 meters long ship is adequate as OPV/LMS. Why RMN need a bigger one if can not do extra? It will be just extra expense.
Clearly you have not been reading Malaysian Defence as I had clearly written that the LMS Batch 2 specifications called for a ship between 70 to 99 meters in length. Originally it was between 70 and 90 meters in length. Why it needs a bigger ship then? Well for use in the South China Sea of course. No, not to confront China ships but the SCS tend to be rough, and a bigger ship tend to handle it better. This also meant better accommodation for the crew, a big morale booster.