SHAH ALAM: Chief of Defence Forces General Nizam Jaffar announced on April 5 that the Malaysian unit in Lebanon will receive new High Mobility Light Tactical Vehicles (HMLTV) at the earliest by mid-2026. A tender for the supply and delivery of the HMLTV is expected soon, according to my industry sources.
In the original post, I wrote that the HMLTV that
the specifications call it to be a smaller armoured 4X4 vehicle capable of carrying five people compared to the much bigger Guardian and Panthera.
I wrote that because that has been the specifications for the HMLTV for the last five years or so. Even the potential candidates for the requirements – displayed at two DSAs – were ‘four or five passengers, armoured 4X4 vehicles. These are of course, the Nurol Makina NMS; Mildef HMLTV and the FNSS Pars 4X4.
Interestingly, as I had published the post, one of my sources stated that HMLTV will not be an armoured vehicles or Kenderaan Jenis A, instead it will be like the unarmoured Kenderaan Pembawa Senjata in service with the Army – the G Wagen, GK-M1 and Cendana Auto KPS (HMG/AGL).
Intrigued with this, I checked with another source who said that my first contact was wrong and the HMLTV will indeed be a KJA as had been written and spoken before. Most of the time when I cannot get double or three confirmations of a story, I will not publish it.
This time I am letting it go as I realized that turning the HMLTV into unarmoured KPS was the only way to ensure the contract can be awarded to the local industry. I believed both the GK-Mk II and the Cendana Auto KPS can be fitted with a RWS to meet the UNIFIL requirement for such HMLTV. As I wrote earlier I believed no local company will be able to manufacture an armoured HMLTV – to deliver the vehicles – within 12 months of the contract award.
Of course I will ask more people about this to confirm whether or not the HMLTV is a KJA or a KPS instead. Hopefully, the request for bids will be published soon so we can know exactly the latest requirements. Of course, if I get the chance to meet the CDF I will ask him about it directly.
— Malaysian Defence
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There is no logical reason to replace the current unarmoured Cendana Auto FFR with yet another unarmoured KPS.
As for the cost, Estonia bought 100x Nurol NMS for EUR70 million. The NMS could be an ideal mix for KAD Cavalry regiment Hi-Lo mix alongside the curent AV8 Gempitas. We would need around 150-200 NMS HMLTV to equip the 5x KAD Cavalry regiments.
it is also crazy to put RWS on soft skinned vehicle. There is no difference is suvivability of those inside it if use RWS or just manually manning the gun on the roof.
Enemy bullet will still penetrate the vehicle even if you use RWS.
A reason why i find the tiny armored shield on the Cendana Auto KPS is a bad joke. That tiny shield is of no use if enemy bullets can easily kill the driver and gunner through the windshield or the doors.
One of the cheapest armoured LTV is the Korean KIA KLTV, also used by the Korean Contingent in Lebanon. Costs around USD150k each. No issues for them by UNIFIL to have no RWS on the KLTV.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FoxAekCaMAEHn-B.jpg
400 million dorrar for 60 unarmored car? lmao
… – “There is no logical reason”
When did “logic” enter the equation? If it did and ensuring the armed forces and taxpayer got their cash’s worth; we would have not ordered the Fulcrum, we would have got Super Hornets instead of Flankers, Crotale instead of Jernas, the initial pair of LCSs would have been constructed in France, we would order not lease helicopters, etc, etc.
I just don’t understand. Why don’t we have something like the US Humvee and mass produce it? Why the many type of it?
Hilux
The vehicle already looks like it’s overloaded as it is in the first photo.
“HMLTV into unarmoured KPS fitted with a RWS to meet the UNIFIL”
If for UNFIL not necessary it has to be local involvement, after all the Panteras were directly shipped from Nurol to Lebanon so whats the difference this time? Also if UNFIL requirements calls for armoured car (on top of the RWS) then sending KPS with RWS is moot as UNFIL will surely not pay us the full amount as happened in the previous case. In this case the NMS/PARS4x4 is the right candidates.
“A reason why i find the tiny armored shield on the Cendana Auto KPS is a bad joke”
Stones thrown by Lebs can even badly damage them whatmore bullets of the armour piercing kind. Those inside are meat shields.
“No issues for them by UNIFIL to have no RWS on the KLTV”
Depends on area where their placed in duty. For us, UNFIL decided we required to have RWS hence why our decision to come with despite the commanders on ground advicing we dont need to have them. Since UNFIL is paying for it so we need to have them.
Marhalim, I have a question. Since the Guardians werent fully reimbursed which led us ordering Panteras to meet UNFIL full requirements, will UNFIL pay in full the Panteras or just the balance original reimbursement as in contra with the earlier cost of the Guardians? Surely they arent so stupid as to pay us like 75% for the Guardians and then 100% for the Panteras when the requirement only calls for 1 type of MRAP vehicle and unlikely they willing to cover both costs for our mistake (with Guardian)? Or am I missing something?
AFAIK the UN will pay the correct amount reimbursements if they found the item is in compliance with the specifications, There is no requirement for a single vehicle type, AFAIK. The Indonesian contingent has three type of KJA.
Long story short,
Malaysian AG is a fool.
UN disbursed the use of the vehicle as it is, but AG thinks we lost out on the higher reimbursement value because the guardian is rated as APC not the more expensive IFV due to no RWS fitted.
The AG foolishly thinks that our UNIFIL force in Lebanon should be treated as a money making endeavour rather than a humanitarian task…
UN : i will reimburse you $100 an hour for APC and $150 an hour for IFV. The Guardian is an APC so i will reimburse you $100 an hour.
AG : Tentera Darat lose money for the government as the Guardian did not get $150 an hour! All because Guardian don’t have RWS! Tentera Darat is bad!
That is what happened. But nobody said a thing when our soldiers dangerously travel around in a soft skinned vehicle that totally looks like an armoured vehicle to those uninitiated (cendana auto FFR)
“Stones thrown by Lebs can even badly damage them”
Grills.
“the UN will pay the correct amount reimbursements”
Oh wow, that sounds wonderful. We made a mistake with 8 Guardians which UNFIL paid for it and we corrected it with 20 Panteras RWS which UNFIL gonna pay for it too. Meanwhile were gonna bring back the Guardians in time meaning we got to use them in Msia for free thanks to UN didnt penalise our earlier mistake for not meeting fully their requirements.
What a brilliant way to get new vehicles. I wonder if we can repeat such “mistakes”, you know to get more stuff for free. Hehe.
@Hulu
“Malaysian AG is a fool.”
The AG is a political tool. The Govt then was using him to hit out the Guardian buy from previous administration. No different than today he serves his masters. But people will take his word line & sinker coz he speaks their political flavour.
“But nobody said a thing”
Because nobody died… yet. So nothing to highlight. I even doubt AG aware the KPS arent armoured when looking at it. And if ever such where men died due to escalated incident, as usual we will find kambing hitams from others; be it the previous Govt that bought them KPS, or UNFIL, or TDM, or even Cendana for ‘bamboozling’ the Govt into assuming its sufficiently armoured. As usual with the current Govt, accuse others, deflect attention, make a big show of ‘investigating & penalising’ the other parties, and their voters will buy it.
“As usual with the current Govt, accuse others, deflect attention, make a big show of ‘investigating & penalising’ the other parties, and their voters will buy it”
Was under the distinct impression these were traits common to all governments from the time a particular PM came into office in 1981.
“traits common to all governments from the time”
It wasnt so obvious until after GE14, where even natural disasters were easily blamed on previous Govt, and it wasnt so blatantly terrible until after GE15 as we seen today where just about any bigshot Opposition politicians are getting scrutinised/ investigated/ in court/ fined/ jailed/ turned friendly (take your pick). You could say the current PM was a good understudy who is applying what he learnt from PM 1981 but then again didnt we voted for something different?
Fron UN POV there is no mistakes. The Guardian is rated as an APC, and their use is reimbursed as such.
From Tentera Darat POV the Guardian is not even a buy. It is gotten for FREE, traded-in with expired Starburst missiles as an offset to the Starstreak missile contract. Reimbursement from UN is for their use, not for their buy.
From the Auditor General POV, Tentera Darat lost money for the government coffers, because the Guardian is reimbursed as an APC, not the much more higher reimbursement rate for IFVs. The difference between APC and IFV reimbursement rates is listed as “losses” to the government. During press conferences, AG overreached its responsibility by questioning why Tentera Darat didnt have RWS on the Guardians, that would have gotten higher reimbursement from UN. The Guardians is what Tentera darat wants, and needs for UNIFIL mission, and UN is fine with it. Other UNIFIL forces does not have RWS on their vehicles and UN reimbursed them accordingly.
This has no issues with UN, only with Malaysian Auditor General.
” even Cendana for ‘bamboozling’ the Govt into assuming its sufficiently armoured ”
No
Nowhere did Cendana Auto infer that their FFR is armoured, or the army expecting them to be so with their FFR requirements.
But the design and styling of the FFR, with flat sides etc looks very much the same as many genuinely armoured APCs of that size, such as the IAG JAWS or the TAG LT79 Terrier.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYXlXaxXwAcSFiC.jpg
Yes the Cendana Auto FFR looks cool (i really think it is), but looking cool like an armoured vehicle when it is actually a soft skinned vehicle is very dangerous for its user, something the user and the manufacturer did not think about its consequences.
Running around looking cool in the Cendana Auto FFR in malaysia is great, but doing the same in conflict area will just be a bullet magnet.
Lesson from this:
Do not reskin your vehicle (that is to be used in war) to look cool like an armoured vehicle when it is actually not, and offer no performance differences compared to just leaving the Hilux/Fortuner body alone.
“It wasnt so obvious until after GE14”.
On the contrary it was obvious or apparent. May have been done in a diffrent manner but it happened.
“but then again didnt we voted for something different”
I’m not part of the “we”.
Funny thing is that the uparmoured Hilux/Fortuner/other Toyota trucks looks the same as non-armoured ones. There is no requirement by the Army for the FFR/KPS/Utility trucks to be armoured.
“UNIFIL mission, and UN is fine with it.”
No their not. Thats why for our mission profile we were required to have IFV with RWS, however with advice from Malbatt commander, we went the lower option of getting Guardian without RWS and UNFIL reimburse us as such. Still the requirement for UNFIL remains unfulfilled hence why we went with Panteras RWS. You think we buy just for fun? UN has requirements for nations onboard to fulfill and if they dont their services will not get renewed.
“Nowhere did Cendana Auto infer that their FFR is armoured”
Their design implied so as you explained; design and styling of the FFR, with flat sides etc looks very much the same as many genuinely armoured APCs. Unless somebody ask the right questions the assumption from a layman would be their armoured to small arms.
“uparmoured Hilux/Fortuner/other Toyota trucks looks the same as non-armoured ones”
These are done as to be non obtuse and usually used by high end bodyguards, PMCs, Govt agents undercover, or SWAT.
“no requirement by the Army for the FFR/KPS/Utility trucks to be armoured.”
The situation in Leb would have changed now with Israeli deep raids with impunity might accidently get in conflict with UN forces and/or such raises ire with the local populace to turn against UNFIL teams (which happened to us recently) many of them armed with rifles and part of various militias. We might be asked to go into hostile neighbourhoods which is why the need for KJA HMLTV rather than KPS.
Hulu “But nobody said a thing when our soldiers dangerously travel around in a soft skinned vehicle that totally looks like an armoured vehicle to those uninitiated (cendana auto FFR)”
Auditors check for compliance based on existing law and policies and not wishful thinking. And TDM does in fact not complied with existing law and policies.
Joe “The AG is a political tool. The Govt then was using him to hit out the Guardian buy from previous administration”
Auditors general is not the same as attorney general.
Malaysia is not CCP. When you lied about your numbers then no one would trust your numbers ever again and as seen in PRC leads to deficit of trust and subsequently foreign capital exodus. That’s why even in the mahathirism peak, the AG report is impolitical and often reported damming evidence, the PKFZ is a fine example of that.
Now just because 1 AG found mismanagement doesn’t mean the other AG (attorney general) would make a case out of it or screw the case so bad that you’ll end up with Dismissal Not Amounting to Acquittal.
Personally I found the whole talk about sending 60 or half of the planned HMLTV to Lebanon (mean it needs to be arms) and want it as fast as possible is just an attempt to overturned MILDEF leasing proposal.
Recently TDM seem to have a history of trying to overturned bean counter preferences and end up with zero 105mm gun, zero SPH & zero helo. Now they attempted to get zero 4×4 once again.
The keywords to get money nowadays seem to be *maritime capable. And bean counter has the initiative to spend as little as possible for anything not maritime capable or not at all and put it on the back burner. Probably that’s why TDM end up with zero new procurement for the entirety of the current RMK.
Joe, your understanding of the situation is inaccurate to say the least, and i will just put it at that as i think my explanation before is clear enough.
@Zaft
“the AG report is impolitical”
Nothing is impolitical anymore with the civil service none moreso than Auditor General.
“Now they attempted to get zero 4×4 once again.”
Their being choosy on what they want, Caesar for SPH when offered M109 then Yavuz then EVA, Blackhawk for chopper, JMLTV for KJA.
Zaft – “Recently TDM seem to have a history of trying to overturned bean counter preferences and end up with zero 105mm gun, zero SPH & zero helo. Now they attempted to get zero 4×4 once again”
It’s not “recent”. The end user as the one who actually operates the stff knows what works, what doesn’t, what’s suitable and what isn’t. Not them being picky. Easy for others to claim and that but the situation we’re in is due to the politicians forcing the end use to get stuff ill suited for its needs. There is also a magical thinking atitude that what works for others will work for us.
“the local populace to turn against UNFIL teams (which happened to us recently) many”
It happened to us in a area we were passing through and have no relationship with the community. Unsurprisingly in areas our troop are based there are no issues. Our troops are welcomed.
“Unsurprisingly in areas our troop are based there are no issues. Our troops are welcomed.”
Cant take areas where we are as benchmark for the whole country. Largely their suspicious of foreign military force (whether from Muslim nations or not), and its guaranteed there will be hostilities when we go out of our comfort zone. If theres a budget cut to UNPKO, it might not totally disband UNFIL but might downsize the serving nations and those remainder will have to expand their patrol & peacekeeping zoning area left by other PKO. In that scenario its highly likely if we stayed, we might have face hostilities thus why its better to send KJA than KPS over there.
“Cant take areas where we are as benchmark for the whole country.”
Neither can we use a few incidents in areas where our terima had no presence nor a relationship with the local community as a “benchmark”. As a whole a large part of why UNIFIL has existed for decades is because a large part of the population appreciates is presence.
Azlan “It’s not “recent”. The end user as the one who actually operates the stff knows what works, what doesn’t, what’s suitable and what isn’t. Not them being picky.”
The problem with doing so is the army currently is no longer the beancounter who hold the purse favourite child and it give them easy excuse NOT to buy anything for the army as they did this RMK and divert the money to their current favourites child and fulfilled all of the navy and AF wishlist as they did this RMK.