SHAH ALAM: Defence Minister DS Khaled Nordin has denied a claim by a member of parliament that the Ministry of Finance (MOF) has issued a letter of intent for the Eva 8X8 SPH which is represented by Global Komited Sdn Bhd, a company under the Weststar Group.
Speaking in Parliament on March 12, Khaled said the procurement of the SPH has not been finalised yet.
From the Hansard:
Terima kasih Yang Berhormat Pendang. Secara detail saya mungkin tidak dapat hendak beri makluman, tetapi saya percaya dan dimaklumkan bahawa semua proses-proses perolehan adalah
mengikut standard operating procedure perolehan yang ditetapkan oleh kementerian
serta mengikut peraturan dan pekeliling yang dikeluarkan oleh Kementerian
Kewangan. T
Tender proses melalui kementerian. Apa-apa keputusan akan dihantar
kepada Kementerian Kewangan sebab itu merupakan peraturan dan pekeliling. Ini
termasuklah soal howitzer yang memang sedang dalam proses perolehan. Jadi,
belum muktamad, belum lagi muktamad. Jadi, kita masih lagi sedang tunggu siapa
akhirnya dan daripada mana kita akan beli peralatan itu. Begitu jugalah tentang
pembekalan peluru yang dibangkitkan oleh Yang Berhormat semasa perbahasan.
The question from Pendang MP Awang Hashim:
Yang Berhormat Menteri. Minta sikit.
Terima kasih Yang Berhormat Menteri. Terima kasih Tuan Yang di-Pertua. Tadi
disebut end user ini-lah masalah kita yang sebenarnya Yang Berhormat Menteri.
Saya hendak sentuh berkenaan dengan, fasal end user ini. Kita tengok berkenaan
dengan tender perolehan meriam. Ini aset juga. Aset tentera. Meriam 155mm selfpropel howitzer dia panggil, SPH. Ini dibangkitkan oleh kerajaan─ oleh PH pada
ketika itu masa menjadi pembangkang.Saya dapati benarkah sekarang ini MOF telah mengeluarkan LOI yang
berjumlah RM805 juta kepada syarikat Global Komited iaitu anak syarikat Weststar
yang dikatakan tiada dalam senarai, tetapi atas arahan sesuatu diberikan kepadasyarikat Global Komited ini untuk pembelian EVA buatan Republik Czech yang
menawarkan harga termahal yang melepasi siling MOF. Ini yang saya hendak
bangkitkan, ini end-user ini. Eva juga, ini dikatakan bertentangan dengan kehendak
tentera darat yang memilih Caesar buatan Perancis yang mana harganya ia boleh
diterima oleh semua pihak. Difahamkan juga, pihak tentera darat telah mengeluarkan
surat bantahan di atas keputusan Kementerian Kewangan ini. Jadi, saya harap minta
penjelasan daripada Menteri Pertahanan hari ini
Malaysian Defence comments:
I was informed that the selection of the Eva SPH by industry sources last week, ahead of this story. As mentioned by the MP, I was told the Army had issued an objection letter to MOF after it wrote a letter to the Defence Ministry on its decision on the SPH tender. I was told that the MOF had selected the Eva over the Caesar, which was selected by the Army’s tender committee. The committee had forwarded its recommendation of the Caesar with Eva as the second choice. For tenders above certain cost, will need to be approved by the MOF.
I was told that a closed competition were offered to six vendors late last year though only five decided to take part. I was not informed of the other three contenders. The Army tender committee selected the Caesar as it got the highest points.
As mentioned by the MP, the Eva was more expensive. My sources indicated that it was above the weight requirements as it can be airlifted by an A400M only. The Eva though has an automatic loading compared to the Caesar. The Army’s requirement was for semi-automatic loading only.
Eva was named as the winner of the SPH contract some time back.
— Malaysian Defence
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Nice…at least we know this program still alive..I just hope this SPH, LMS batch 2, HMAV, HMLTV, 12 CSAR heli program will be contracted soon.
Pros and cons.
Caesar has a lighter footprint but its crews have to be out in the open exposed to the elements and other things. Curious as to why the army specified a need for semi-automatic loading. Interestingly as of a few months ago not a single Caesar had been lost to loitering munitions or UASs; unlike other systems.
It’s too much to ask but would be ideal if the SPH requirement was followed up by an order for a couple of radars; distributed in a decentralised manner; regimental or battery level.
We do love buying prototype aren’t we?
The Slovaks has donated a number of EVA SPH to the Ukrainians.
If is 2nd choice, it still part of the game right?
Just like our TUDM previous Nuri replacement, AW-101 score no 1 but we choose EC-725
Not really if its above the budget. They listed the number two due to the process.
zaft – ”We do love buying prototype aren’t we?”
If it has completed development and has been or is ready for production then it wouldn’t fall into the ”prototype” category.
“Army had issued an objection letter to the Ministry of Finance (MOF).”
This is what i like to hear…stop with “asalkan ada bolehlah” mindset
@zaft
the EVA is not an early prototype. It’s already in Ukraine and was based off earlier Slovak auto howitzers. there nothing wrong with it other than it doesnt meet army airlift requirement. it’s possibly the fastest shoot-scoot artillery besides pzh2000 and G6. the only issue here is Caesar has a large backlog and Ukraine may take delivery priority.
Again we are buying 18 units of an unpopular make. Thank god they are not going to be customised to make them 18 units of very rare items like our Flankers.
Good for the rent seeker….lock on maintenance for 30-40 years
As I said, Caesar was the real and only choice that TDM wants all along and be damned the rest as they will do everything to scupper every other option. M109? Dead. Yavuz? Dead. EVA? Dead.
Some chose to deflect and claim that TDM would be okay with something similar as long as its new. Well this has put that claim to its grave. It has been Caesar and Caesar all along.
“Render unto Caesar what TDM wants”
Is ADS still the vendor for this Nexter deal? I recall they were the vendor for LG1.
Rm805m for Eva sph contract. how many pieces we can get with that amount.how much per unit cost. If it meet the requirements for second best place why not here we go la.Although Caesar is more cheaper than the yavuz and others sph with rm854m for 18 unit and free a couple drone.The problem maybe, mof choose Eva over Caesar because huge backlog buyers from European country, from what I read at the wikipedia three countries are waiting for the delivery of the Caesar beside Ukrainian, to complete more than 200+ caesar are Belgium 28unit chez republic 62 unit and Lithuania 18unit all this countries estimates deliveries by 2026 and 2027 onwards and not included what France ordered for 109 Caesar ng2.If the army can wait maybe after 4 to 6 more years 2028-2030 for the deliveris?. The production line for Caesar estimately monthly was about 6 or 7 and 70/80 unit per year.
As for the CAESAR, is there any slots left as currently France is prioritizing all its artillery production for Ukraine?
http://www.euronews.com/2024/01/18/france-to-deliver-more-caesar-artillery-systems-to-ukraine
The CAESAR MkII is said to be heavier then the original CAESAR (due to a new more poswerful engine and new chassis), at around 25 tons. That means it also cannot be airlifted by C-130 (20 tons payload limit)
In May 2022, Belgium signed a contract with France for the acquisition of nine CAESAR NG MkII 155mm 6×6 self-propelled howitzers for an amount of €62 million. This contract includes communication and information systems (CIS), equipment, and software necessary for integrating the howitzer into an interconnected network, as well as training materials.
With that as a benchmark, an order for 18 CAESAR MkII for Tentera Darat should be around RM535 million mark.
As for no CAESAR destroyed
http://armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/second_ukrainian_caesar_howitzer_destroyed_by_russian_lancet_kamikaze_drone.html
Here we go round and round again. Pening lah.
No, it was not because of the Caesar delivery times lah.
Yes but with a big brother…
The more things change the more thwy stay the same..corrupt as ever
”As for no CAESAR destroyed”
This is what I wrote – ”Interestingly as of a few months ago not a single Caesar had been lost to loitering munitions or UASs; unlike other systems.”.
Hasnan – ”Again we are buying 18 units of an unpopular make.”
Who and where was iot said it was ”unpopular”?
Fathi – ”it’s possibly the fastest shoot-scoot artillery besides pzh2000 and G6.”
I believe that distinction belongs to Archer.
The issue is – a major one – is we need UASs, radars and other things to work in tandem with the actual hardware. As well as a proper C3 set up. No point having long range and precision fire if we can’t detect, track and hit targets – observed or unobserved – in a timely manner. Organisation is also vital; decentralisation not centralisation as the Ukrainians have demonstrated.
Not confident we’ll acquire the ability soon; although on paper and on wish lists the sky is the limit.
”Some chose to deflect and claim that TDM would be okay with something similar as long as its new.”
How dare they. The audacity…
”As I said, Caesar was the real and only choice that TDM wants all along”
Caesar was always – bar a brief period when the Artillery Directorate considered a tracked option in the form of the K-9 – the leading contender because for a long period there wasn’t really a wheeled alternative [Archer was discounted at an early stage because of its price tag and inability to fit in a C-130]; because the French had strong political pull and the requirement to be able to air lift whatever was bought gave Caesar a key advantage.
Hasnan “Thank god they are not going to be customised to make them 18 units of very rare items like our Flankers.
Good for the rent seeker….lock on maintenance for 30-40 years”
Just like the MKM, yavuz. The eva too would be a special one of a kind as there’s no other buyer yet.
@Fathi
“If the army can wait maybe after 4 to 6 more years 2028-2030”
Heck why not, they been waiting since the early 2000s and were willing to kill earlier deals because they are not Caesar so accordingly they have no problems waiting a few more years because were not at war with anyone, right?
Meanwhile Indonesia have prepped their M109s and new Caesar at Kalimantan ever ready to fire across…
Fathi – ”.If the army can wait maybe after 4 to 6 more years 2028-2030 for the deliveris?”
Well it was willing to wait because it’s not as if it didn’t have a choice and because it already has a long history of being incumbered with stuff which didn’t suit its requirements.
”As for no CAESAR destroyed”
This is what I wrote – ”Interestingly as of a few months ago not a single Caesar had been lost to loitering munitions or UASs; unlike other systems.”.
zaft – ”Just like the MKM, yavuz. The eva too would be a special one of a kind as there’s no other buyer yet.”
You do realise [or not] that the MKM is merely a variant specific to Malaysia of an existing design which was already operated.
“was bought gave Caesar a key advantage.”
Yavuz has all those advantages plus the advantage of being made in a Muslim country so it would be something that a PM can use to up his dismal appeal. It was probably the reason why it got so close to a deal.
Rock – “Nice…at least we know this program still alive”
The programme was never “dead”. It was put on hold but never “dead” as it has been registered and approved for funding.
Following the order for the MBTs the idea was that we needed a tracked platform which ordered the same level of mobility. Thus the K-9 arrived for mobility and firing trials. The Artillery Directorate considered it but eventually ruled it out. It also rejected the G-6 which was offered. Archer was ruled out due to its price tag and inability to fit into a C-130 and was never really offered to us anyway.
Until a few years ago there was no serious contender to Caesar in the form of a wheeled platform of a certain weight and size [if anyone can think of one]. One of the main requirements was that it fit into a C-130. On
top of that a wheeled platform is much cheaper to sustain [and more comfortable] and poses less issues for the road/bridge infrastructure.
As such it’s hardly a surprise that throughout the years Caesar was always the leading contender even though for a certain period a tracked platform was considered
Please don’t buy any big assets for the Army for the time being…at least for 10 years!
Concentrate on assets for the Navy and Air Force. The Army seems to think being the senior service they can get what they want most times.
Erase that! We have large expanse of seas between the mainland and Borneo. We have issues at sea with China and our neighbours. So this idea of overfed generals in green jackets playing with new toys is just God awful.
Caesar is the sole defacto choice for TD as the test for Caesar saw them scoring a whopping 90+ percent mark if the leaked test result are to be believed.With close to 1 billion allocation them TD can get more than 18 Caesar, im kinda certain with that if we take other countries orders of caesar as a clue.Lithuania for example bought 9 caesar mk2 for 62 million euros/317 million myr/35 million perunit or 8m+ usd perunit.Say that we can deal for 8+m usd perunit like the lithuanian with nexter and with close to 900 million allocation td can get close to 24 units of caesar mk2
Apart from 18 SPH, the budget is also for other equipment for a single artillery batalion, 4X4s, 5 tonne trucks and other enablers.
Of course, it will be better if the whole budget for SPH only and the others are bought separately.
The Caesar got higher marks simply because it has been tested locally, fired by our own artillery soldiers and using the ammunition and charges in stock. The others were test fired overseas using their own crews and ammunition.
If the others had been tested and fired locally will they get higher points, of course.
Does the budget also covers arty rounds? Like any specialised type of shells, ie RAP?
Nope.
There might be one point is part of the procurement consideration.
Palm oil. France bans palm oil, and we want to boycott with big military purchase?
No lah, its basically the local players involvement.
This seems just like the Yavuz. Companies pulling cables leading to Army’s preferred Ceasar that scored the highest technically, and not the most expensive (supposedly) overruled in favour of a not well known SPH and likely more expensive SPH. The process will repeat where another SPH but the Ceasar is “chosen” followed by a “leak” that kills the offer, until the cables run out of names except the Ceasar, unless someone higher up intervenes.
Indeed the TDM now knows how to play the political game to get what they want. By hook or by crook they are in the long haul even if had to wait for years & missed opportunities to get something else much earlier.
kel – ”likely more expensive SPH. ”
Eve is more expensive but it has a fully automatic loading system and does away with its crew being out in the open.
kel – ”until the cables run out of names except the Ceasar, unless someone higher up intervenes.”
There will always be an element of ”cable” pulling; here and anywhere else. Nature of the beast. The army has long preferred Caesar for reasons which have been explained and for the army it was well worth the wait; rather than being again encumbered with something ill suited for its needs.
Firdaus – ”Caesar is the sole defacto choice for TD a”
As has been explained it was always the main choice due to the need for something to be airlifted to Sabah and the fact that a wheeled platform is inherently cheaper to sustain than a tracked one. As note that firing trials are great but firing trials under what conditions?
It is not new, somebody with political influence glorify when it was purchased and the rest will regret it later.
The stain which will not go away
You make it sound like we’re buying surplus 25 Pounders. Whether it’s Caesar or Eva there won’t be major ”regrets” although each has its merits and one might better suit what army seeks in a SPH. Ultimately too much emphasis is being placed on the actual hardware which is vital but secondary if the army doesn’t have the right C3, organisation and various enablers to enable arty to be employed effectively. The trick also is to ensure the 18 SPHs aren’t the only ones which will be bought for the next couple of decades.
“it was well worth the wait”
Simply because there was no urgent need for them so TDM can take their jolly good time waiting for the equipment they wanted, because well we are not at war with anyone.
OTOH if Im a politician & decisionmaker, I will think; “if TDM can willing wait 10 years to get the SPH they wanted, why not ask them wait for another 10 more years? Its not like they need them urgently coz if they had a need for it, TDM would have accepted anything previously”. TDM are lucky all our politicians are dumb or the smart ones arent making decisions.
”It was well worth the wait” because the army did not want to again find itself incumbered with stuff ill suited for its needs. Stuff it had issues with from a force employment and support perspective; i.e. Jernas.
”if TDM can willing wait 10 years to get the SPH they wanted”
”But” the army didn’t say it was willing to wait ”10 years to get the SPH they wanted”.
”TDM would have accepted anything previously”
But it did accept the M-109s; not that it had a choice. And it wasn’t the army but government which decided to scrap the deal…
”so TDM can take their jolly good time waiting for the equipment ”
The army didn’t wait its ”jolly” time waiting for anything. Time and again it pushed for the requirement which was long registered and approved subject to funding allocation. The army being willing to wait a bit longer to get something which suits its operational requirements and it according to you supposedly being willing ”to wait 10 years” or taking its ”jolly” time is a different issue even if true [it’s not] and neither the army’s leadership or Artillery Directorate makes policy.
”because well we are not at war with anyone.”
If we were at war with anyone would a regiment’s worth of guns make the key difference and would it have arrived in time to make a difference?
“because the army did not want to again”
Because there was no urgent need to use them. Simple.
The Ukrainians originally wanted Russian gears at the start since it was what they were familiar with but eventually they were forced to learn to use Western stuff and with lotsa help becoming adept at using, and leveraging their capabilities in sync with Western provided intel & support. Its between wants & needs. Same with TDM, if there was an urgent need to go with whatever is available, Im sure they wont look at a gif horses mouth. But since were not at war, unlike the Ukrainians, of course they could take their jolly good time waiting and waiting while spanaring all other deals that came their way previously (M109, Yavuz, EVA). Kel put it succinctly, they stubbornly clung to what they wanted (Caesar) and killed earlier opportunities. Unlike someone who claimed their okay with anything new with similar capabilities, nope, they wanted Caesar and only Caesar.
“the army didn’t say it was willing to wait”
Action speaks louder than words. They killed previous nonCaesar deals the first opportunity they get.
“but government which decided to scrap the deal”
With full support from TDM. If they had relented and accepted them, they would have pushed thru to get just as their enthusiasm for Caesar. By now we would have fully operational SPH KAD instead of Caesar order still hanging in the air. As I said, it was just luck we dont have a need for them until now.
“The army didn’t wait its ”jolly” time waiting for anything”
They certainly killed other prior deals, that would have gotten us the SPH earlier. If Im a beancounter, I would say they could wait a bit more like 5-10 more years why not.
Logic goes; If there was no urgent need for them yesterday, and there was no urgent need for them today, certainly there will be no urgent need for them tomorrow.
“would a regiment’s worth of guns make the key difference”
Depends on who we go to war with. As you always say; context.
And if the guns were here today it will for sure make some difference compared to having nothing since we not even sure when Caesar will arrive.
”They killed previous nonCaesar deals the first opportunity they get.”
How and when? I was under the impression that funding was never allocated. Lets see what Marhalim has to say on this. What other ”nonCaesar” deals apart from the M-109s? Are you referring to an offer for used PH2000s?
”the Ukrainians originally wanted Russian gears at the start since it was what they were familiar with”
And had the ammo and doctrine for.
”Unlike someone who claimed their okay with anything new with similar capabilities, nope, they wanted Caesar and only Caesar.”
Well who this ”someone” is is an enduring mystery known only to you but it’s plainly obvious that the army – as has been discussed to death – always – the exception being a brief period when it considered the K-9 – preferred a wheeled platform and you’d have noticed that for many years Caesar did not have a competitor.
”Depends on who we go to war with.”
Ok granted but would the guns have arrived in time to make the difference?
”Kel put it succinctly, they stubbornly clung to what they wanted (Caesar) and killed earlier opportunities”
What ”earlier opportunities”? The M-109 was ”killed” by the government; not the army and the army should stick firm by what it needs based on its requirements because when its forced to get something ill suited; it’s left to pivk up the pieces. Examples abound.
”f course they could take their jolly good time waiting and waiting while spanaring all other deals that came their way previously (M109, Yavuz, EVA). ”
The problem with your narrative is that the army didn’t ”take their jolly good time waiting”. On the contrary it kept pushing for the requirement so how can anyone claim it took its ”jolly good time waiting”? Are you suggesting the army did not make the SPH a priority and had to be prodded by the government? Not what I heard. You making a fact or giving an opinion?
Also; as stated previously the army did not ”kill” the M-109 deal and Marhalim in the past has explained what happened. On Eva; again I’m not a fan of the armed services being forced to get something they feel does not suit their requirements [are you?]; right or wrong the Artillery Directorate has ruled out a design with an auto loading system.
To me the M-109 saga is water under the bridge and as it stands the army has long selected Caaser to meet the SPH requirement for the simple reason that a wheeled platform has a lighter footprint and is cheaper to sustain. I will also not say much about Eva or Yavuz as I don’t have the facts thus will not speculate but I will keep open the fact that as the end use th army has a better feel on what does and does not suit its needs.
“I was under the impression that funding was never allocated”
How ‘funding was never allocated’ when the M109s were already in refurbing? When the then Govt had selected Yavuz and was about to sign the deal(maybe they did)? I find that statement incredulous as facts shown otherwise.
“preferred a wheeled platform”
Preference is one thing, when money was short so as the choices. I prefer to get a brand new Mercedes Benz but money is short so i got no choice but to take a Honda, should i blame the banks fault for not giving me enough loan to get a Merc? It seems from the various aborted attempts, money has always been there but just never enough for 18 brand new Caesars, so what should TDM do then? Just sit on their arses coz were not at war so we dont need them yet?
Which.. “would the guns have arrived in time to make the difference?”
If we have gone with prior deals, then guns would be here today. So I throw back the question to you; would the desired Caesar arrive in time when the shooting starts?
“The M-109 was ”killed” by the government”
With tacit support from TDM as I said many times, the various aborted attempts; M109, Yavuz, this EVA. And there was the ‘leak to kill’ article as explained by Marhalim. One wonders where the leak came from since it was only TDM that was unhappy with the selection chosen.
“Are you suggesting the army did not make the SPH a priority”
Honestly? Yes. It was a requirement prior to even the Gempitas yet that got thru, the later LG1 light arty got thru, it was not a big ticket buy just that money was not enough for that one SPH they desired, there were many attempts to get a deal but was scuttled one after another after another. Goodness me, if i were the TDM chief and it was a priority i would have put my foot down get what is being offered, which they did not.
“To me the M-109 saga is water under the bridge”
To you maybe but SPH saga is still ongoing as no units are in yet, 6 years on since the M109 cancelled yet nothing, is that something to be applauded? Its something to be appalled!
As for the leak to kill, it is obvious that the other competitors has some interest on killing off the Yavuz deal, some RM800 million worth of interest..