KUALA LUMPUR: Since the show ended on Thursday, lets finish our discussions on the contracts that were actually signed during the show. Since the matter of the AV8 and the Cougar will come up again in the near future, I will reserve my comments for now.
What were the contracts that were signed during the DSA 2010? Well for starters, it include the spares and technical assistance for the Scorpene submarine simulator system (RM128.5 million), 2R2M mortar system (RM60 million), supply of spares and technical services assistance for the Sukhoi Su-30MKM (RM100 million); an order of various ammunition and ordnance worth some RM46 million from SME Ordnance Sdn Bhd and the delivery of HK416 assault rifles for the Royal Malaysian Navy (RM6.9 million).
Both the spares and technical services contract were for a 3-year period. I have no idea whether the amount for the Scorpene simulator system will be adequate for the period specified but I am quite sure that the amount for the Sukhois is too small compared to number of aircraft the air force has. I believed RM100 million per year will have been more appropriate. What does this mean for our Sukhoi fleet? I have no idea at the moment.
RM60 million for eight mortars? Its means that the mortar costs us RM7.5 million each. It is expensive as a mortar goes especially one without an automatic loader. I do not want to be a spoil sport, but a 120mm mortar projectile is bloody heavy and each Adnan mortar carrier will only have two soldiers as the loaders. Since no one is talking about a fire control version of the Adnan to go with the mortar carriers, I am guessing that our soldiers rely on their Mk I eyeballs so there is really no need for an automatic loader?
We will skip the ammo and ordnance deal for SME Ordnance since its difficult to make comparisons for such things and go straight to the RM6.9 million deal for the HK416. The contract signing was just formality as the guns had been delivered to the Paskal.
Since we are getting a new class of assault rifle, the Maritime Assault Rifle complete with accessories it was not surprising the EACH gun cost around RM38,000! They only bought 180 guns. I have no idea what super-duper accessories which jacked up the price of the HK416 to RM38,000 but torch-lights, lasers, optics and thermal devices were part of the deal.
Another funny thing about the RM38,000 assault rifle is that Paskal, actually wanted the HK417! So do not be surprised that within two years there will be another tender for a Maritime Assault Rifle in 7.62mm calibre!
The Paskal probably wanted to replace their Valmets that were used in the LMG roles in the past. I saw one team carrying the Valmet in 1995 but I dont have the photograph proof of it. Lets just say that by identifying the Valmet was the reason I was able to get close the Paskal team back then.
–Malaysian Defence
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View Comments (12)
I think the mortar has a semi-automatic loader. The soldiers don't have to lift the round all the way to the muzzle. They put it in a rail which lifts the round automatically.
On Youtube is a video of this procedure, type in "Dragon Fire 120 mm Heavy Mortar", it's the 2R2M tested by the USA.
Except if TDM has purchased a stripped down version of the system. That would be bad.
Marhalim: Even with the rail (semi automatic loader) they still need two guys as the loaders, which to me is still a bad idea when they are others mortar system with automatic loading system in the market...
2R2M mortar comes with a semi auto loader
Marhalim: Semi still means that we need to have two soldiers as loaders
In addition to what David mentioned before, the 2R2M was featured before in Future Weapon (jst type Future Weapons: Dragon Fire II in youtube). AFAIK, both the Bighorn and 2R2M (as examples, or AMOS and Sing's SRAM) utilize a semi-automatic loading system when fired from an open-hatch platform, and just like any 120mm mortar systems in the market (in its category), 2R2M can be operated by a single operator/loader. However, most of the time 2 operators are attached to a single system for several logical/operational reasons. To be honest, I do not know if there is any similar system that has an automatic loading capability. Pls do correct me if I am wrong bout this. Heard that even turret-based mortar still utilize a semi-auto loading..
It also must not be confused with the "automated laying" phrase, which connotates a different meaning altogether.
The French has also demonstrated to the Yanks that any smoothbore rounds can be fired from the rifled 2R2M as well - a bonus I guess, esp when operating with friendly forces that operate one.
Mr Marhalim, if you don't mind, perhaps u could shed some light on several contracts (LOI,LOA etc) tht was signed last week..
I'm curious on the said contract given to SCS. Is it for the maintenance of current C4I system, or will it be for a totally new system (or for new centres/nodes?). If Im not mistaken, it was an LoA, so far the details aren't tht clear.
Next, the new trailer for 105mm guns, as per LoI given to SERT. A bit puzzled as to the real status of this company, is it an offshoot of Masdef? Cos SERT currently holds the license from TATRA(OEM) to offer after sales service for their product in-country. And SERT also marketed the same Tatra T815 4x4 truck, similar model tht Masdef jst sold to NSC last year! Masdef also seems no longer promoting Tatra in its website - and all this happened in less thn 1 year? Does it means that our 105mm trailer will be source out from Tatra as well? DURO can perform admirably as well, I guess.
Thank you.
Marhalim: the SCS deal is for the current one, the new one supposed to be done by Sapura has gone stealthy after it was axed at the last DSA.
Yes, SERT has taken over from Masdef as the country's franchise holder for Uro and Tatra. Thats the reason that Masdef pulled out from DSA 2010 on the last day. Yes all the trucks on the market today can tow our pack howitzers, the problem is the......
Please correct me, but isn't Finland's AMOS the only fully automated mortar that is in serial production? Even the US army is still using muzzle loaders, and the Singaporean system is using a semi-automatic rail loader very similar to the 2R2m.
The Germans pay RM229 Mio (54 Mio EUR) for 8 mortar carriers they've ordered in 2009 (Wiesel 2 LePzMrs), that's RM28 Mio per piece. Of course the Germans are not the Malaysians in terms of available money, but the Wiesel 2 has an even more awkard loading procedure than the 2R2M. I couldn't find a figure for the Singaporean deal, maybe you can help? :)
Marhalim: The German deal come together with the command and control and joint fire support team and the whole system is networked...ours come stand alone. The Singaporeans never reveal the cost of their national projects.....
I do not think there are automatic mortars in this category other than the Russian/Chinese ones. The RUAG BigHorn and the STK SRAM mortars are all semi-auto.
The automatic ones are turret mounted.
Marhalim: The 120mm mortar projectiles are usually around 200kg, a turreted mortar would have been a better option...
Very true. A turreted option such as the AMOS would have been a better option as it provides the crew with protection. Problem is the cost, AMOS is much more expensive.. Bad enough a miserable 6 mortars costs 60 million. Thats 8 mortars to provide support for 3 battalions in the tank regiment!
Ah, you must have confused something up there, Marhalim. A 120 mm mortar round weighs no more than 15 Kg (for example American HE-Frag round M57 weighs 13270 g).
Even the massive 160 mm round that Singapore once used weighs "only" 37 kg.
Marhalim: I have been wrong on many things before, Davids, thanks for the heads up....
A 200kg projo would be cool. A 155mm HE-Frag round is approx 100lbs. A 8"/203mm howitzer projo is 200 pounds and is generally handled by 2 men on a tray.
Having mortarmen to load tubes is OK because it gives the track a decent number of people to do everything else. All the super-low manning arty systems suck for force protection, maintenance and bombing up.
Me?..I would add a trailer full of mortar bombs as standard since these damned things will take you black in a heartbeat.
Checked, the TDA 120mm does indeed come with a semi auto loader [whatever that means...]. The question is what rounds the army intends to get beyond HE, illumination and smoke. For Bighorn, RUAG has developed an extended range and a round with bomblets. The other interesting questions are how the 120mm will be distributed.
Marhalim: With only eight vehicles to go around there is not much chance of a good distribution...