SHAH ALAM: It appears that the RMN had stood up the ASW Helicopter Nucleus Team to provide the overview and technical guidance for the procurement of the aircraft. The existence of the team was made public when it visited a Japanese ship and its resident helicopter, which docked at the Port Klang Cruise Terminal on March 5.
The release by RMN stated that the nucless team was invited to a Subject Matter Expert Exchange programme to take a closer look at the ASW Helicopter (SH-60J) operated by JS ARIAKE. Destroyers Ariake (DD-109) and JS Hamagiri (DD-155) berthed at the terminal on March 5.
Malaysian Defence was told that the nucleus team was stood up last year as the RMN geared up for the procurement of four ASW helicopters in RMK 13. Another four is likely to be procured in the next RMK or the next one. As with other nucleus teams, if the contract for the ASW helicopters is signed, some of them will become the project team personnel to oversee the manufacturing and delivery of the aircraft.
The likely candidates for the project are (in no particular order) the Lockheed Martin SH-60/70 Seahawk; Leonardo AW-159 Wildcat, Bell 412 MMH, Airbus EC-725 and the NFH-90 Caiman. Other helicopters may well be offered as well, I am told. RMN has been looking to procure ASW helicopters for the last two decades or so but as always other things got in the way.
𝐋𝐀𝐖𝐀𝐓𝐀𝐍 𝐎𝐏𝐄𝐑𝐀𝐒𝐈 𝐊𝐀𝐏𝐀𝐋 𝐉𝐌𝐒𝐃𝐅 𝐊𝐄 𝐌𝐀𝐋𝐀𝐘𝐒𝐈𝐀
PELABUHAN KLANG, 5 Mac – Dua aset Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) telah tiba ke Malaysia dalam rangka program lawatan operasi hari ini.
Aset terdiri daripada kapal jenis kelas pemusnah iaitu JS ARIAKE (DD109) dan JS HAMAGIRI (DD 155) tiba di Port Klang Cruise Terminal disambut dengan iringan pancaragam KD Pelandok. Turut hadir dalam majlis menerima ketibaan kapal adalah Pembantu Duta Besar Jepun di Malaysia, Minister Karimata Atsushi.
Dalam siri lawatan operasi kali ini, Pejabat Penasihat Pertahanan Jepun juga turut merangkakan program interaksi bersama warga TLDM termasuk aktiviti lawatan kapal yang melibatkan warga TLDM dari Markas Tentera Laut dan Pusat Hidrografi Nasional. Selain itu, Tim Nukleus Projek Helikopter ASW TLDM telah dijemput dalam program Subject Matter Expert Exchange untuk mengadakan lawatan ke kapal dan melihat dengan lebih dekat Helikopter ASW (SH-60J) yang dioperasikan oleh JS ARIAKE.
Lawatan ini melakar satu catatan sejarah yang akan menjadi satu lagi pemangkin kepada pengukuhan hubungan dua hala TLDM dan Tentera Laut Jepun pada masa hadapan.
Malaysian FPDA allies, Singapore and Australia also operate the Seahawk for ASW roles, which may provide further insights for the nucleus team. The US Navy the biggest user of the Seahawks may well also be in their future plans. The UK Navy which plans to bring a carrier to this region this year may also provide more reference for the nucleus team. The UK operates the Leonardo AW-101s in the utility, AEW and ASW variants.
— Malaysian Defence If you like this post, buy me an espresso. Paypal Payment
At one time we were all for the Wildcat but things have changed. AgustaWestland as it use to be called has less “pull” and support isn’t cheap. Also, what it quoted to upgrade the Lynx was almost as high as buying new, according to the RMN.
Ultimately the LCS can have the best performing sonar in the world but it still takes a helo with the space and lift capacity for a pair of torps, dipping sonar, sonobuoys and fuel.
ASW is time extensive and at times the helo will have to fly quite a distance to get to where the contact is. It will have to spend time fixing and engaging the contact and to fly back.
Unless we intend to use a pair of Wildcats [one with a dipping sonar and one with a torp], not the most practical way of doing things, to deal with every contact, something other than Wildcat is needed if we are serious about ASW and intend on getting more than a minimal capability. The good news is that the hangar on the LCS has been enlarged/lengthened and can accommodate something larger than Wildcat.
Since we’re on ASW am I correct in saying the Batch 2s will not have a sonar and a pair of triple torp tubes?
I wonder if there’s a plan to fly the ASW helos off the LMS batch 2 too since they are not going to have sonar and light weight anti sub torpedo?
Wildcat is a multirole platform like the f35. So obviously it’s a jack of all trade master of none if one going to compared it to a dedicated platform.
But if we do procured the seahawk, we would need to procured either the Apache and viper as well Since the Seahawks can’t do pew pew. Or we could just procured the wildcat and have it done both job. Not brilliantly off course. Nor do we need 2 wildcat to do a single job since Airbus had been promoting their vsr700 asw uav working on top of a belharra few months ago. Not sure if it’s a prototype or someone had thrown money into it though
Another thing to consider is the are where we would perform the asw operations. Neither the LCS or our upcoming MPA has long leg so it’s not like we are going to search for sub in the middle of the Pacific.
Politically I just don’t see the current gov would find American products to be political correct just like all the previous gov did.
Not saying the Seahawks can’t win. But I wouldn’t hold my breath for it.
From the options available we can go on and ditch 2 of the contender; NH90 and Bell 412; one for being utter crap without excuse and the other for simply being inadequate of a platform we might as well go with navalized AW139
Hopefully we can get navalized Caracal for the ASW tasks as not only it’s bigger, the AF already have decades of experience in operating them
There is a plan but not stationed on them unless it is the only ship around the area.
The AW139 does not come with folded rotors, AFAIK.
@ azlan
STM turkiye corvette does not have any ASW capability
@ marhalim
AW139 dont have a hole in the floor for dipping sonar
The lowest cost option is to ask JMSDF for some of its SH-60J Seahawks. They have more than 80 of them retired, and now mostly has been replaced with newer SH-60K (even SH-60K is going to be replaced by SH-60L soon). SH-60J production is from 1991-2007.
Currently JMSDF have 12 SH-60Js and 75 SH-60Ks in active service as of March 2022
Another option is to have the GOWIND Frigate to operate with other smaller ships as part of multistatic sonar operations
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GV0j5meaAAAs0Or.jpg
LIMA is coming this year rite? So the team will have great opportunity to look at the choppers of various nation ships coming to visit.
“Lockheed Martin MH-60 Seahawk; Leonardo AW-159 Wildcat, Bell 412 EPX, Airbus EC-725 and the NFH-90 Caiman”
Of these, only the Seahawk, Caracal, & Wildcat are viable contenders. The Sea Huey is fixed skid gear and needs special trolley for onboarding, the NH90 is a problem no one wants with a 10ft pole. Of the 3, Seahawk is whats ideal but most expensive, Wildcat is most affordable but shortest leg yet its known as we using it too, EC725 is also known to us but in TUDM utility role, as for ASW it will not be cheapish either. A left field prospect is another Leo; AW101 Merlin.
Imho the most likely will be Wildcat simply because its the only option which we can afford. Ideally the ASW Caracal would be the best balanced option if Seahawks with Seahawk too expensive.
If fitted with a dipping sonar Wildcat will not be a “jack of all trades”.
If we go get Seahawk it will have nothing to do with the likes of Apache and Viper. Anything more than us getting 155mm guns has to do with the need to get RCLs or NVGs. Have no idea what “pew pew” is and not really inferested in finding out.
ASW configured UASs are still in the early days and at present are mainly intended to supplement manned assets.
Also, a helo is only expected to fly X NM away from the ship and there might be times when the MPA is operating in tandem with the ship and the embarked ASW helo. There is also a difference between range and endurance.
Zaft – “Politically I just don’t see the current gov would find American products to be political correct just like all the previous gov did”
Anything is possible. From time to time we do buy American or stuff which contains a high proportion of American stuff, e.g. F/A-50s. BTW it’s more “politically correct” or palatable compared to buying Chinese, especially after the air incident. You also might be aware or not, that at times it’s not poliical correctness but the fact that certain stuff can only be acquired via FMS that puts us off getting American.
“can accommodate something larger than Wildcat.”
Or a Wildcat with dipping sonar and a portable UAV dropping torp like an Amazon drone delivering your packages.
“Since the Seahawks can’t do pew pew”
Why do we need ASW choppers to do that?
“Not saying the Seahawks can’t win. But I wouldn’t hold my breath for it.”
Mainly coz its far too expensive to afford, more than any other reasons.
The wildcat is part asw platform and part attack helo. Not particularly good at either compared to a dedicated platform but would allow the bean counter to crossed 2 requirements in one go.
Even if TDM eventually gets the greenlight to get a dedicated attack helo no other attack helo other than American can do both land and maritime strike. Thus getting the wildcat would mean if we were to procured an attack helo. The bean counter can cross maritime strike capable off the requirements and allow them to consider others cheaper non American attack helo.
Not to mention the gov also wouldn’t have to deal with FMS while also getting “local participation” parts in and still get to curry favor with the voters whose dislike America (Be it because of Gaza or their anti china stands.) while also getting the economic of scale part of the DWP fulfill by standardizing all helo to AW platform. So while the Seahawks maybe a superior ASW platform operationally. There’s other factors that would favor the wildcat considerably.
FA50 is a bit different because there’s really no other alternatives that can do FLIT, interceptor, ground attack and BVR in one go. Buying anything other than FA50 would mean we would need more MRCA then the current 2 squadron proposed.
“acquired via FMS that puts us off getting American”
More often what puts us off is the high prices they come. If we could easily afford it, politics be damned we would salivate getting Romeo ASW, Hawkeye AWACS, F35.
Logical options that we could afford
1) used JMSDF SH-60J Seahawks (+ many spare airframes as reserve/sparepart)
2) used SH-60B seahawks from US Navy
3) used but almost like brand new US Navy MH-60R Romeo
https://www.twz.com/26395/the-navy-has-dozens-more-mh-60r-helicopters-than-it-needs-due-to-lcs-debacle
4) upgrade/convert existing Super Lynx to ASW
… – “Another option is to have the GOWIND Frigate to operate with other smaller ships as part of multistatic sonar operations”
Possibly but the LCS won’t always be operating with other ships. Operating with other ships also does not do away with the fact the LCS will have limited ASW capabilities without a helo with the range, endurance, lift capacity and internal space.
… – “The lowest cost option is to ask JMSDF for some of its SH-60J Seahawks. They have more than 80 of them retired”
Perhaps the first step would be to contact their Defence Attache to determine status and availability. Then convincing the Japs to consider handing them over. Assuming we want them of course. The actual platforms may be there but we have zero idea as to actual conditions and other pitfalls associated with bringing them back into service.
South Korean Helos, the marines suri on?
@joe
Technically American weapons enjoyed economic of scale thus it’s often more capable and cheaper then the alternative.
The thing that likely puts us off buying American is politic probably. while American is an important security partner we don’t intend to be her close allies and able to work alongside them in a highly non permissive environment like the Aussie and sinkie does.
It seems we wanted our cake and eat it too. We wanted the American to safe our ass and secure our SLC but we don’t wanna join American military misadventures.
.. “The wildcat is part asw platform and part attack helo”
What are you on about? The Wildcat is a naval helicopter which if a customer So desired can be configured for ASW. As such ASW will be its primary role.
Zaft – “Even if TDM eventually gets the greenlight to get a dedicated attack helo no other attack helo other than American can do both land and maritime strike. Thus getting the wildcat would mean if we were”
Who says we seek a common platform and the requirement for a attack heli is still very early days.
Zaft – “FA50 is a bit different because there’s really no other alternatives”
There actually are. Not as well maybe but there are.
… – “Logical options that we could afford”
… _ “upgrade/convert existing Super Lynx to ASW”
“Logical”?
The RMN has already stated that upgrading the Lynx is not a good ROI because the costs are almost as high as buying new. Not only that but no matter how comprehensive the upgrade doesn’t change the fact that Lynx does not have the range, endurance, lifr capacity and internal space required.
The “high prices” is not what put us “off” but the fact that there’s hardly any role for local companies. Having operated the Hornets for years we understand the benefits which come with FMS.
Zaft – ” while American is an important security partner we don’t intend to be her close allies and able to work alongside them in a highly non permissive environment like the Aussie and sinkie does”
You left out the highly pertinent part where due to our non alignment status we don’t have allies and are not part of any binding military pact.
BTW Australia has a close relationship with the Americans going back to WWW2 and Singapore which is not an official ally has its own strategic reasons.
” The RMN has already stated that upgrading the Lynx is not a good ROI ”
Beggars can’t be choosers
It is a comparatively affordable option, even if unliked, which is why i listed it down. There is a precedent with this, Brazilian navy did it with its “wildlynx”, that should cost more than TLDM conversion as our super lynx already have the exact same engine, main gearbox, rotor blades with the wildcat.
… – “Beggars can’t be choosers”
Appreciate the cliche but the RMN is an ubderesourced navy, hardly the “beggar” you label it plus it’s the government’s care of duty to provide funding. Secondly surely you who have so much to say on so many things are not suggesting that the RMN be straddled wurh something which does not fit requirements or enable the desired capability. Unless your crystal ball says with certainty that a helo will never have to fly far to deal with a contact and it will only take minutes and with one torp. Or that having a Lynx armed with a top and another with a sonar is an efficient way of doing things.
There is also the pertinent fact that spending cash [which you’ve had a lot to say about my] on an upgrade on a 20 odd year old platform is hardly a prudent way to spend scarce resources.
… – “It is a comparatively affordable option”
In the long term : no. Precisely the reason why the RMN has decided not to upgrade the Lynx. Same reason why the RMAF will only spend what it absolutely needs to on the MKMs keep them operational until they can be retired. BTW no idea about Brazil but what works for others might not for us – different dynamics at play.
Azlan “The Wildcat is a naval helicopter which if a customer So desired can be configured for ASW. As such ASW will be its primary role”
Which can be reconfigure to perform other duties like transport, maritime strike, close air support and reconnaissance.
@hulu “It is a comparatively affordable option”
Not according to SK it didn’t. Their justification for the acquisition of surion is because SLEP cost on the 20 yo blackhawk would cost as much as acquisition of new surion.
Zaft – “Which can be reconfigure to perform other duties like transport, maritime strike, close air support and reconnaissance”
It can be configured to fly Bugs Bunny to Never Never Land but if we but it, it will be primarily for ASW. You do realise that with the sonar fitted there is no space for anything else and that it’s not as if we intend on taking the sonar on and off the platform.
there’s always Eurocopter/airbus Panther if the government is too cheap. It’s bigger than Super Lynx/wildcat (about as big as AW139) and it has version with folding rotor and Sonar dip and MAD
As I mentioned in the story, it is likely other helicopters will be offered when the tender is published.
If I’m not mistaken the TNI-ALs have Panthers with dipping sonars. Fitted with a dipping sonar does a Panther have the needed range and endurance? Can it also carry torps and sonobouys?
” Their justification for the acquisition of surion is because SLEP cost on the 20 yo blackhawk would cost as much as acquisition of new surion ”
Totally not true
Surion is significantly more expensive than SLEP, but they are willing to spend more to help korean MIC.
” According to the study, it would cost some 3.3 trillion won (U.S. $2.9 billion) to producing about 130 Surion troop-carrying helicopters, which is more than five times higher than the price of UH-60 upgrades ”
http://www.defensenews.com/global/asia-pacific/2020/10/09/south-korea-to-replace-black-hawks-with-homemade-surion-helos-says-lawmaker/
Also note that the cost of those 130 Surions are cheaper than malaysian lease of 28 helicopters…
A reason why i have advocated on getting those UH-60P for PUTD, either as offsets for any korean deal or even separately. They are retired not because of technical issues, but for political reasons.
From that article abt surion
It is said that blackhawk SLEP costs 1/5th of brand new Surion
If 130 units of brand new surion is USD2.9 billion, the cost of SLEP for a single blackhawk is just USD4.46 million.
Even if we buy those UH-60P blackhawks for USD1 million each (US ARMY blackhawks regularly auctioned for 250k-500k each), cost for each UH-60P blackhawk even after SLEP is around USD5.5 million each only.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GFqRrH1WUAEwAYV.jpg
We can get a lot of value for our money if we just look around carefully for good deals.
Azlan ”What are you on about? The Wildcat is a naval helicopter which if a customer So desired can be configured for ASW. As such ASW will be its primary role.”
Insisting it’s a one trick pony is Quite similar arguments used by hulu to justify his dislike for the MRSS.
@Zaft
“more capable and cheaper then the alternative.”
Sez who? Do you know how much their weapon system cost when not considered when not been fully/partial sponsored by Murican taxpayers? They have top of the line hardware & with it top of the line prices, its why SH ranked low on the list when MRCA 4.5gen was decided, and why we not often went for USA stuff.
“we don’t wanna join American military misadventures.”
We can buy Murican weapons without joining them, look at SG.
“Which can be reconfigure to perform other duties”
Our Wildcats can fire Sea Skua but thats as much offense duty it can perform. For general purpose stuff we have MUH choppers so why run down these ASW choppers?
“there’s hardly any role for local companies.”
There are other roles for local companies even when bought FMS/direct. Didnt stop us buying FA50s or LMS2 and further down these will be serviced/SLEP by locals. If we could afford to buy USA stuff we would in a jiffy. Affordability in the numbers we wanted is our main problem, not politics.
“Singapore which is not an official ally has its own strategic reasons.”
Being friends with Israel (esp after Gaza) also helps a lot. We should take a leaf of that.
The Wildcat is a one trick pony by design as with other helicopters. It can do either anti surface (good, the Royal Navy chose this version) or anti-submarine warfare (only ROK Navy is doing this one, and they are moving to the Surion for ASW). It is the same for the Seahawks, Caimans and others, it must be decided from the start what they are going to do with it either anti surface or anti submarines as no one has figured out how to put an anti-submarine module into a helicopter and replace it with another module inside the confines of a navy ships. They cannot even do it if the helicopters are shore based.
Lets look back at the Surion cost, and the SLEP cost for blackhawk (utility version, not asw seahawks)
130 Surions is put at USD2.9 billion
SLEP for blackhawks is put at 1/5th the cost of a single Surion
So the cost of SLEP for Blackhawks =
2.9bil / 130 / 5 = USD4.46 million
So even if we offer to buy the UH-60P from south korea for PUTD as is for USD1 million each (US ARMY blackhawks are auctioned for around 250-500k each), it would just cost about USD5.5 million per blackhawk helicopter. Way cheaper than any leasing deals.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GFqRrH1WUAEwAYV.jpg
@ marhalim
MH-60R Seahawk Romeo is designed to do both ASW and surface attacks. Yes SH-60 Seahawks cannot. A reason for the MH-60R high price tag.
The government cannot buy utility version of the Surion as it has decided to lease utility helicopters.
“There are other roles for local companies even when bought FMS/direct”
I was reffering to local companies being agents. Also only much later did local companies have a role. Prior to that everything was ordered by us via the US via FMS.
“not politics”
That too plays a part, at times more so, e.g. buying Super Hornets during the period when there was a lot of local discontent with the invasion of Iraq and the “War on Terror”.
“own strategic reasons.”
Being friends with Israel (esp after Gaza”
Beeen friends with Israel since the 1960’s, their NS system is based on Israel’s, their doctrine of preemptive strike, etc.
“Our Wildcats can fire Sea Skua but thats as much offense duty it can perform”
Our Lynxs “could” fire Sea Skua but as pointed our to Zaft if indeed we get Wildcat they will be configured for ASW and used primarily as such. Anything else will be secondary.
Zaft – “Insisting it’s a one trick pony”.
Perhaps before hitting the keypad, take some time to reflect about what you want to say, before making spurious comparisons. Again in as easy to understand as possible language :if we do get it, Wildcat will be used primarily for ASW.
“Didnt stop us buying FA50s or LMS2 and further down these will be serviced/SLEP by locals”
I referring to U S. stuff via FMS which largely precludes the role of local companies and makes it largely impossible for kickbacks or commissions. Never said we never sign government to government direct commercial deals with others. We do when we have to. Also, another issue we’ve faced with U.S. stuff is the – at times – long approval process from the time intent is made.
“If we could afford to buy USA stuff we would in a jiffy”
Not only are prices a issue at times but other factors as week. Also U.S. stuff might be pricy but we’ve long discovered that they can be more cost effective in the long run, e g. the Hornets compared to the Flankers and Fulcrums, and because of the support via FMS ensures better realibility. That has to be paid for of course as it’s a service performed on our behalf.
Zaft – “Insisting it’s a one trick pony is Quite similar arguments used by hulu to justify his dislike for the MRSS”
Perhaps before hitting the keypad take some time to ponder about the point you are trying to make. Again, if indeed we get Wildcat it will primarily be used for lift. Yes it can be fitted with a missile to engage surface targets but that’s not the primary reason we might get it or it’s primary role. Thus any claim that the situation is similar to the one trick RoRo and the multi role MPSS is to put it mildly, off..
” The government cannot buy utility version of the Surion as it has decided to lease utility helicopters ”
I mean the plan to restart the lease of blackhawks for PUTD. Plans can be changed or rescinded, it is not written in stone. Why lease blackhawks when we can get some outright from south korea for less??
Also just look at the Surion cost.
USD2.9 Billion (RM12.84 billion) for 130 Surions is around the same ballpark as my previous calculations of RM15 Billion for 140 EC725 and AW139s (i did round out a lot to increase the numbers though). That means my calculations are super conservative and still less than the RM16.5 billion cost of the lease!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gkh2xRZb0AAyUwu.jpg
Another clear reason why that 12 AW149 & 16 AW139+AW109T helicopter lease cost is unacceptable.
I believe Japanese SH-60J mass retirement is a similar story to why the koreans want to replace the UH-60P with Surions.
Political & national interest.
Rather than upgrade the SH-60J with new avionics, mitsubishi redesigned the seahawk cabin to be a bit taller and wider to fit new avionics, and a reason to build new airframes. That became the SH-60K Seahawk. So there is now around 80 SH-60J retired, but with probably plenty of service hours left.
Getting ASW helicopters is a very expensive endeavour. As a low cost alternative, TLDM need to ask JMSDF if these retired SH-60J are still around and available to be transferred to malaysia. Say of we need to use 6 helicopters, no harm to ask for 12, and keep the excess airframes for contingency/spare parts use.
Anti submarine UAVs are also coming into the picture now. Hopefully that’s going to be a viable option in the not too distant future.
@ tomtom
” Anti submarine UAVs are also coming into the picture now. Hopefully that’s going to be a viable option in the not too distant future ‘
Correct.
UAVs such as the Bayraktar TB3 will have ASW capability, with the ability to drop sonobuoys.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FutmP-KWYAQ3kZx.jpg
“I mean the plan to restart the lease of blackhawks for PUTD”
That plan is gone now with mega crony leasing chopper deal. No more buys, the plan is to feed our mega crony. IF we could lease ASW choppers from them, we would.
As mentioned at the moment they are seen as complementary to manned assets but in due time that will change no doubt.
… – “Getting ASW helicopters is a very expensive endeavour”
So is the LCS with the great sonar you’ve made much mention off but will have a limited ASW capability if it does not have the right helo. As someone pointed out to me many years ago, the Kasturis have a great radar in the form of the DA08 which can detect targets at decent ranges, targets which can only be engaged with guns
Both kasturi & lekiu has DA08
Yes the GOWINDs will need ASW helicopters. But our budget only allows for 4.
“a bit of everything but not enough of anything”
This can be solved with getting used. No shame to use the SH-60J Seahawks handed down from JMSDF. At least we can have them in numbers. If serviceability is 50%, if we need 4 operatioanl then we just get 8 of them, with 8 more as spares/reserve. Its okay if we just use them for 20 years only. Now we are on the dawn of unmanned systems, more mature systems will be around in probably 10 years time.
Going for unmanned systems will need more space than available on ships like the GOWIND. RSN specially chosen the large iver huitfeldt frigate design as a base for its MRCV that has a primarily mission as an unmanned systems carrier.
Maybe, another solution like the installation of hydro phones can be considered.
… – “Both kasturi & lekiu has DA08”
Yes thank you but the Lekius had Seawolf.
… – “This can be solved with getting used. No shame to use the SH-60J Seahawks”
Who said there was? What I did say, here and elsewhere, that we also have to be aware of the pitfalls in getting used. Can you for certain say the stored platforms are not worn out and require work for another operator to operate them? Or are you assuming that they are in good condition and will require no issues in being pressed back into service? Just because something is low houred, in top condition and available doesn’t mean we will have no issues later. As a caveat in case you bring it up : no I’m not totally against the idea of buying pre owned. You brought up the “no shame” part but in all our discussions on the subject, in this thread and in others over the years, “shame” was never uttered by me.
Why not take the 1st step and approach the DA and the Jap embassy?
… – “Yes the GOWINDs will need ASW helicopters. But our budget only allows for”
So? Will the whole class be at sea art the same time? Also, helos are not organic to ships but are deployed on a need to basis.
Lee,
Hydrophones [basically another word for sonar] on the seabed you mean? This doesn’t do away with the need for a ASW helo embarked on a ship.
“Also, helos are not organic to ships but are deployed on a need to basis.”
Its better if we had a tactical change and keep an ASW chopper with each LCS. The crew will be well familiar with its onboard chopper and every ready to use pls lowers the mileage of the ASW fleet.
” Why not take the 1st step and approach the DA and the Jap embassy? ”
I am proposing the options
It should be the services that do the asking around. No difference to how the kuwaiti hornets are approached.
” Also, helos are not organic to ships but are deployed on a need to basis ”
I never uttered those helicopters need to be organic to the ships.
4 in operational condition. It can be 1 deployed on a ship, 2 more training duties, 1 on operational standy ready to go. To have that, you need to have more than 4 airframes, with additional 2-3 probably in maintenance.
@ hulu “USD2.9 Billion (RM12.84 billion) for 130 Surions is around the same ballpark as my previous calculations of RM15 Billion for 140 EC725 and AW139s (i did round out a lot to increase the numbers though). That means my calculations are super conservative and still less than the RM16.5 billion cost of the lease!”
Other then the fact you comparing the cost of buying bezza with cash outright Vs buying bezza with 15 years installment + SLEP + maintenance that is.
– It’s not up to the services. It’s up to the politicians to decide to explore the option. The system works top down… Yes by all means “explore the options” as you tend to do but also look at the pitfalls or penalties which can be associated with pre owned. Like I said : do you know with actual certainty as to the conditions of the stored platforms? I don’t, this I will not assume.
– Who said anything about you “uttering” anything? You pointed out that we will only get 4 helps and I in turn pointed out it’s not as if the whole class will be at sea at the same time and that helos are not organic but embarked on a need to basis, thus having only 4, whilst not the most ideal of arrangements, might not be such an issue. Depends on the tempo and duration.
– As for the needed airframes to always have at sea, depends on the tempo and duration. The squadron’s engineering people can plan to work around this. During the MCO just a pair of Cougar flew daily delivering stuff to remote areas for weeks on end.
As for space for unmanned systems. We’ve discussed this before, as we have had with a very long list of things. A UAS can be operated from the helo deck – the RSN operates Scaneagles from the Victory class which has no helo deck.
As for a larger design which can operate both UASs and USCs. On paper yes, in reality I’m not so sure as the RSN’s doctrine and requirements differ somewhat from that of the RMN’s.