SHAH ALAM: The PDRM has requested to the Home Ministry for the purchase of 18 armoured vehicles for its units operating in ESSCOM, the IGP was reported as saying. IGP Hamid Bador told the Kosmo newspaper that the application has been approved and the ministry was in the process of putting the tender for the vehicles.
Inside the cabin of a PDRM Baracuda armoured car. PDRM
From PDRM Facebook page.
“Kita mahu memantapkan lagi kawalan keselamatan di kawasan tersebut supaya sektor pelancong dapat dibuka sedikit demi sedikit,” katanya kepada Kosmo! baru-baru ini.
Mengulas lanjut, Tan Sri Abdul Hamid berkata, pihaknya memohon sebanyak 18 buah kenderaan perisai bagi membolehkan pasukan keselamatan melakukan rondaan di kawasan berkenaan.
Jelas beliau, kenderaan perisai itu penting untuk kegunaan anggota tanpa sebarang risiko serangan selain keadaan muka bumi di pantai timur negeri tersebut.
“Permohonan itu sudah diluluskan dan saya difahamkan, Kementerian Dalam Negeri kini dalam proses membuka tender.
“Saya harap permohonan disegerakan untuk ditempatkan di Lahad Datu dan Sandakan,” katanya yang memberitahu aset sedia ada tidak mencukupi.
Despite the scoop, Kosmo had done a mistake with the story by putting a picture of policemen patrolling at one of the many sea villages in the eastern coast of Sabah (see picture below)
PDRM Facebook post which quoted the Kosmo article.
If the story was meant to justify the purchase of armoured vehicles for the police, Kosmo sub editors may well did not see the point. A better picture (below)
Army and GOF joint patrol in ESSCOM AOR. Note the GK-M1 weapon carriers from the Army. The left one is fitted with a 12.7mm machine gun while the other is fitted with an automatic grenade launcher.
Anyhow I am trying to find out from my sources some specifications on the new armoured vehicles, though I am guessing that they will be looking for an armoured 4X4. As reported before the police has a number of Barracuda 4X4 APCs stationed in ESSCOM AOR that was previously purchased for the UN mission in Timur Leste. According to a report earlier this year, the GOF units are equipped with four Barracudas, four Shorland Land Rovers and four IAG Jaws armoured 4X4s.
A PDRM Barracuda operating in Sabah. PDRM
It was up to me it would be cheaper and easier for the police to simply purchase uparmoured Toyota Landcruisers or Hilux. I had stated some time back when the police were looking for armoured vehicles shortly after the Lahad Datu incident, which never happened of course. They did buy some ATVs and 4X4s for ESSCOM AOR though.
Polaris MRZR. PDRM bought 10 of these buggies for ESSCOM duties.
The police did purchased a number of armoured 4X4s but the vehicles, the Jaws APC 4X4, are mainly used by the UTK as the Streit Typhoons, purchased earlier than 2014.
Weststar IAG Jaws APC.
–Malaysian Defence
Just pass 18 condors from the army to PDRM and be done with it. Later when say more gempitas available for 5 KAD Sabah, pass all the lipanbaras to PDRM too.
Can PDRM combine their order with TDM order for 20 4×4 APCs? That would save on cost.
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No
Strangely enough, I wholly agree. PDRM needn’t buy new armoured 4x4s or personnel carriers. Just detach a dozen or so army Condors and hand these over to the police. I understand the police workshops are good at handling and servicing their vehicles. If we go to some kampung stations, chances are they’re still using Kancils and old Sagas… all in running order.
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I don’t think the police wants to replace their 40 year old armoured vehicles with another batch of 40 year old vehicles
@ marhalim
This is to add, not to replace any of current armored vehicles in ESSCOM.
Many of the current PDRM V150, Shorland and Sankeys are even older than the condors, being purchased in the mid 70s
http://www.dailyexpress.com.my/news/147801/pga-sabah-bakal-terima-12-kereta-perisai-tahun-ini/
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Yes they will add to the Jaws and Baracudas, its the Shorland, they will replaced. Of course they will have to replace the Commandos and Sankeys
As a requirement for a patrol vehicle that can be protected against small arms fire, there is nothing wrong with using a condor that is fully rebuild mechanically to as new condition.
Unimog spares are aplenty, and it is also shared with the barracudas. Civilian spec equipment such as surround cameras, air-conditioning that does not need to be CBRN specs etc means it can be made much more comfortable without the high price tags.
I rhink one must ride in either a condor or comando150,to experience why PDRM needs a better modern 4×4 armoured vehicle.
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If you see the videos most of them showed that the Commandos are used as the fire support vehicle while the Sankeys are used to carry personnel. Like the Condors, its quite difficult for dismounts equipped with vests, helmets and other stuff to exit or enter the Commandos
I prefer either Weststar IAG Jaws APC or Barracuda assuming the current requirements and budget are similar.
Well our boys in blues got their pride too..pretty high at that i believed..They will not wanna be a dumpster for army to dump their old unwanted equipment at Police doorstep..They will demand no less than a streit typhoon or iag jaws equivalent apc like streit scorpions or spartans or even additional jaws or typhoon..
Pride is shown by putting the country first, not by going around in posh vehicles.
The police does not need a MRAP level armoured vehicle like streit typhoon for patrol duties. All it needs is a vehicle able to withstand assault rifle attacks. and the condors are capable enough for that.
So only army allowed to get a brand new ‘posh’ equipment? And whenever army didnt want to use them anymore they can dump it at police doorstep?..Utk use typhoon when urban terrorist almost non existent today..Police PGA that patrolling the border facing with illegal smuggler everyday cannot get a brand new posh vehicles?..Ohh btw 1 pga operator killed and another one badly injured near thai border today..sure lets not get any brand new vehicles for police lol
We have hundreds of Condor APCs that is way better than the Saxon that the PDRM are using. Condors that withstood bullet rains from somali insurgents. Condors that has the exact same drivetrain as the recent police Barracuda APCs.
Rebuilding the Condors to as new condition provides more than enough protection for police duties. We have at least 300 remaining. We can pass on at least 100 condors to the police with no issues at all.
https://www.malaysiandefence.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/marhalim37.jpg
http://assets.bharian.com.my/images/articles/hawk02.transformed.jpg
condor
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7281/8741141954_943be20d73_b.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3Vo8p8nlSf0/Ufq_CkqoOrI/AAAAAAAAIhs/sTgfIfVuf6g/s1600/RMP_S5.jpg
barracuda
On the PDRM skuadron perisai.
Currently the orbat is like this
Briged Utara
Skuadron Kereta Perisai 1 Kulim, Kedah.
Skuadron Kereta Perisai 3 Ulu Kinta, Perak.
Briged Tengah
Skuadron Kereta Perisai 5 Cheras, Kuala Lumpur.
Skuadron Kereta Perisai 7 Bakri, Muar, Johor.
Briged Tenggara
Skuadron Kereta Perisai 9 Kuantan, Pahang.
Briged Sarawak
Skuadron Kereta Perisai 11 Kuching, Sarawak.
Briged Sabah
Skuadron Kereta Perisai 15 Lahad Datu, Sabah.
With UTK also having their own armoured vehicles.
Right now all Skuadron kereta Perisai have just about a dozen armoured vehicles each, mostly of AT105 Sankeys, V150 and Shorlands. Seems that the Ferrets have been retired, I personally last seen them running about 5 years ago. Skuadron Kereta Perisai 15 now had 4 Barracudas, 4 IAG JAWS (passed from UTK) and 5 Shorlands.
Moving forward, I would personally prefer all sankeys and V150s to be replaced with rebuilt as new Condors passed on from TDM. Condors are based on the Unimog drivetrain. Brand new unimogs can still be bought now. A bare brand new unimog costs around euro120k.
http://gmc.eu/product/unimog-u5000-4×4-chassis-cabin-me3474/
Say a full rebuild as new with all new drivetrain, and police fittings such as blue strobe lights, loudspeakers etc. for RM1 million each.
Lipanbara on the other hand costs RM7 million each
http://themalaysianreserve.com/2017/04/03/deftechs-new-hmav-unveiled/
IAG JAWS cost RM2 million each.
https://www.malaysiandefence.com/home-ministry-and-assets/
Lets say there would be a total of 8 skuadrons of kereta perisai, with sabah to eventually have 2 skuadrons.
Each squadron to have 10 large and 6 small APCs. So that is a total of 80 large APCs and 48 small APCs.
80 Condors would cost RM80 million.
48 small APCs would be like the IAG JAWs based on the toyota land cruiser 79. IAG JAWS cost RM2 million sold to PDRM. But a more advanced APC also based on the land cruiser 79, like the TAG Terrier LT-79 costs just USD144K each. Lets say with shipping, support and markup RM1 million each. So 48 LT-79 costs RM48 million
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/DteLdC5WoAEzSpc.jpg
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELfqI2zUUAI67xZ.jpg
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So a force of 80 full rebuild as new Condors, and 48 new Terrier LT-79 would cost RM128 million. The Barracudas and IAG JAWS could be returned to UTK.
BTW the same amount of money could only buy just 18 Lipanbaras. Or to put it another way, to buy 80 lipanbara and 48 IAG JAWS would cost RM656 million.
So up to the PDRM and KDN leaders to decide.
Before even getting into the subject of armoured vehicles for the police; the pertinent question
to ask : what roles do such units perform at present and what do we expect them to do in the future? On paper; getting then armoured vehicles is great but in reality how does it fit in the overall scheme of things?
We don’t have an insurgency problem; neither are we likely to face one (comparisons have been made but the situation in the Philippines is entirely different and the circumstances which led to the emergence of non state groups there – spanning decades – are not present here). Thus; what roles do we realistically see police armoured vehicles performing and in what operational context? How does it overlap or become superfluous when one takes into account capabilities possessed by the army?
During the 2nd Emergency police armoured vehicles had a clear purpose : convoy protection and the protection of various camps and vital places (same role as in the Emergency before Merdeka). PFF units were allocated their own areas of responsibility (like the Malayan Police “Jungle Squads”) – they had a clearly defined role – a cynic will say they were a counter weight to the army.
At present however their role is not clearly defined. Naturally there is politics at play; in the past the army was against the Police Field Force getting mortars and the police will never willingly give up manpower.
Shouldn’t the PGA (with its various battalions) be playing a greater role in ESSCOM? Shouldn’t we be revamping these units to make them more relevant; quite a lot of manpower which consumes resources. Naturally the army would still be there (main role is external threats) and there is competition for funding but given the low level nature of the threat; the PGA should be taking on a bigger role; not as if the threat is in the form of a combined arms tank corps waiting to land in the Tawau/Nanukan area. .
@ azlan
Each PGA battalion consists of around a dozen officers and 200-400 policemen. Right now there are 19, including the senoi praaq and the 19PGA is dedicated to VIP protection in klang valley. During the communist insurgency there was more than 20 PPH battalions, but reduced after the communist surrendered.
To be frank, the police skuadron kereta perisai is still operated as a counter insurgency unit even though it has been years an insurgency ended. Nowadays those that carry weapons are mainly smugglers at our borders. So in the future, their main tasks should be
– border patrol
– border surveillance
– roadblock manning
– troop transport under armour
– critical infrastructure security such as powerplant or hydroelectric dams.
Mostly to be operational on our land border area with thailand and indonesia.
They are planning to get plenty of new armoured vehicles anyway, which is why i came out with the suggestion above on the Condors and LT-79.
@ azlan
” At present however their role is not clearly defined ”
Which comes to the point, why should a unit with unclear role to be spent on with a big budget to get expensive new hardwares?
The calculated RM600+ million to recapitalise all of the armoured squadrons with say the Lipanbara and JAWS could instead buy the police 5,000 of Honda Civic 1.8 patrol cars!
Which is why IMO going with the Condors + LT-79 is a better bet.
… – “Which comes to the point, why should a unit with unclear role to be spent on with a big budget to get expensive new hardwares”
That’s your point …
Why should a capability which has no clear role even be replaced? Before replacing something; we first have to see what value it provides; what roles, in what operational context in line with actual requirements and realities.
… – “Which is why IMO going with the Condors + LT-79 is a better bet”
I have no idea about “better bets”. My concern is the lack of any clear idea as to what the PGA and its APCs are intended to do. At the moment it’s a bit of everything to justify maintaining it; never mind the politics involved.
@ azlan
” Why should a capability which has no clear role even be replaced?
That is something you need to ask the police chief. The roles as said by PDRM is quoted in marhalims article.
I am just responding to the PDRM plan to recapitalise the armoured vehicle fleet.
… – “I am just responding to the PDRM plan to recapitalise the armoured vehicle fleet”
I know what you’re doing.
I’m merely asking why we need the PGA; what clearly defined roles it performs (it should be taking on a bigger role in ESSCOM for one); under operational context will police APCs be used and whether the resources it utilises are worth it.
@ azlan
so what is your suggestion for PGA future role?
… – ”That is something you need to ask the police chief.”
I would if I could by I suspect I’d only get the ”official” reason [which is neither here nor there based on actual realities] and that the status of the armoured fleet will be right af the bottom of his list of interests and priorities.