PORT DICKSON: 105mm Light Guns Going Airborne. The new Nexter 105mm LG-1 howitzers will requip the 10th Para artillery regiment which currently uses the 105mm pack howitzers. Army chief Gen Zulkiple Kassim says the first batch of guns will be delivered late this year with full delivery expected in 2019.
He did not identify the guns or how many were being bought apart that it will be “a regiment strong”. Malaysian Defence has reported that 18 guns will be purchased, with at least two going to the artillery school in Port Dickson.
Colombian soldiers with their Nexter Systems LG1 105mm howitzer.
Zulkiple also said that the M109 155M Paladin SPH procurement was on schedule and these were currently being upgraded in the US. Asked whether the Army will raise a new regiment to operate the SPH, Zulkiple says not as an existing unit will be taking over the vehicles. He did not identify the unit however. He was speaking to the media after the parade to mark the 85th anniversary at the Army training centre, here today.
MD530 destined for the Malaysian Army on display at the HAI Heli-Expo in Las Vegas
On the MD530G light assault helicopter, Zulkiple again says it was on track though he was probably being careful as he did not say when it was being delivered. As you’re aware, the delivery dates of the helicopter had been announced in the past but those had been proven wrong as none of the rotary birds have been delivered so far.
The MD530G fitted with the FN Herstal rocket machine gun pod and a Gatling. This is a likely weapon configuration for the LAH.
Anyhow, MD Helicopters had showcase one of the MD530G destined for the Army at the HAI Heli-Expo in Las Vegas, Nevada. The exhibited helicopter was painted in digital camo though not very similar to the Nuri and A109 LOH in service with the Army Air Wing.
The MD530G displayed at HAI Heli-Expo is also fitted with the twin Hellfire missile launcher on its starboard pylon. The Army did not purchased the Hellfires.
Reporters at the exhibition stated that although the helicopter was an airframe destined for the Malaysia, the avionics and equipment may well be fitted just for the show. One of them are two Hellfire missiles fitted on the pylon of the helicopter.
The cockpit of the MD530G displayed at the HAI Heli-Expo. Similar avionics are probably fitted to the Malaysian Army ones. MD Helicopters.
As for the delivery dates, I was told recently two were supposed to be here by late 2018. Whether or not the dates will be kept is beyond me. It was reported today by Shepard that the first helicopter will be delivered in June with the rest by August.
* updated to add link to Shepard story on delivery date of the MD530G
— Malaysian Defence
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Well that was expected.
Now:
– how many gun are bought? It should be at least 20, 18 for 1 RAD PARA, 2 for PUSARTI
– How much did it cost? A nexter gun was sold for usd0.8-1mil each before.
– will the replaced oto melara pack howitzers of 1 RAD PARA be used to create a new regiment for 1st division? Seems like the 6 RAD in lok kawi will fall under the new 5th division. Or an existing RAD bantuan rapat regiment will be transferred to sarawak?
– It will be a regiment of 4 batteries, each comprising 4 guns, plus a HQ. Many have gone for 4 gun batteries as they’re easier to control.
– My guess is that the unit’s Model 56s are too worn out to be transferred anywhere and will be retired and stripped for anything reusable.
– Wonder what ballistic computers/devices the army will get for use with the LG1s.
Btw happy 85th birthday malaysian army!
Off topic
Indonesia has bought Vera-e NG system to be placed in Natuna island, between sarawak and semenanjung.
But now It was suppose by april 2018 for the delivery of MD-530G. Nice Camo and Great Armament. I hope we can Buy more MD-530G deapite being Late.
The 105mm LG1 Should be Signed by Next month. I was wondering if The army really want ti replace all Mod 56 Since OTO Melara shut down the production. Is the M119 will be the Main gun For All Artillery Regiment. Even M777 should be replace both FH-70 and G5 Howitzer since it went to the 20s but for now. Let’s just wait for Next Year.
Safran,
Parts for the Model 56 are still available from the OEM and other suppliers. The problem is not a lack of spares but its lack of robustness. Not suitable for extended fire and easily damaged when towed over rough terrain. The FH-70s were retired many years ago and there is no urgent need to retire the G-5s.
Safran “The 105mm LG1 Should be Signed by Next month.”
How did you know that?
“I was wondering if The army really want ti replace all Mod 56 Since OTO Melara shut down the production.”
We do keep a lot of things in service after the end of production because the OEMs are still supplying parts.
“Is the M119 will be the Main gun For All Artillery Regiment. Even M777 should be replace both FH-70 and G5 Howitzer since it went to the 20s but for now. Let’s just wait for Next Year.”
It would be ideal if we could standardize on 155mm and remain on a 105/155mm mix as other armies have done and are doing. We’re obviously not going for this, but there is still a chance to standardize on 155mm outside of airborne units when the M56s (they won’t last forever) are gradually retired.
As I’ve said before, longer range guns will let us cover the same frontage with fewer guns and crew. 155mm projectiles meanwhile are still benefiting from ongoing development in range and the variety of payload.
Weight and logistics are always an issue with airborne guns. Guns are getting lighter- the M777 is air droppable and weighs almost half less than the M198 it replaced in the US and Australia. The issue is how easily we can move it, its ammunition and the mover’s fuel around after it is dropped or landed. Keep in mind that it is much heavier than the M56.
Anyway, we’ve heard nothing about M119. Btw the G5 has a longer range than the M777 because it has a longer barrel (45 vs 39 calibre).
The current artileri organisation
with 105mm oto melara pack howitzers
1 RAD para melaka
2 RAD johor
3 RAD perak
4 RAD negeri sembilan
5 RAD kelantan
6 RAD sabah
7 RAD pahang
with 155mm g5
21 RAD Negeri Sembilan
with astros
51 RAD Negeri Sembilan
52 RAD Perak
The only existing unit with 155mm would be the 21 RAD. Will the M109 replace the G5? Or 21 RAD will get the M109 with a new 22 RAD taking over the G5? Will the M109 really be sent to sabah, or more realistically integrated with mechanized and armour elements in the peninsular?
About the little birds
MD helicopters has a history of using camouflage wraps for HAI Heli-expo show. The camouflage for the malaysian MD530G displayed at the show would probably be stickers too. I don’t see any technical problems with the helicopters, so what is the paperwork issue that is holding it back then? BTW some of the systems on the MD530G, especially the weapons management system (WMS), could also be fitted to the PC-7 Mk1 for CAS mission. That WMS supplier has even tested them on PC-7 Mk1 before.
Reply
Unfortunately I cannot say anything about the reason for the delays
another option would be
7 RAD in Kuantan to be equipped with M109 (nearer to the Mechanized elements) and renamed to 22 RAD. A new 7 RAD to be stood up in sarawak with oto melaras.
more on the MD530G
The WMS shown in the Malaysian Army MD530G at HAI Heli-expo 2018 is different to what shown in LIMA (that was fitted with MOOG SMS stores management system). Well it (the left and right landscape multifunction screens in the cockpit picture) is more advanced than the MOOG SMS, but probably cheaper with the use of off the shelf parts.
With all the changes, will the Thales Scorpion HMD still be fitted to the MD530G?
Reply
I have no idea
AM – ” there is still a chance to standardize on 155mm outside of airborne units when the M56s (they won’t last forever) are gradually retired.
Yes but I doubt it. My feeling is that they’ll still maintain 105s, long after the Model 56s are sold for scrap, by getting a new gun. The advantage in having 105s, apart from costs and weight issues, compared to 155s is that they tend to have a higher sustained rate and 105mm ammo, being smaller will be easier to transport. Others will point out that 155s have a range advantage but then range might not always be a concern.
…. – ”A new 7 RAD to be stood up in sarawak with oto melaras.”
We use to keep some Model 56s as ‘war reserves’ but I doubt it’s enough to equip a whole regiment.
Azlan,
I don’t know how to say but Iraqs and Qatar Replace Quickly the G5 and The Range of M777 with Excalibur is 40KM. It should be on the New Regiment if They really want too… I didn’t mean to say that we should Replaced it since we upgrade the SLEP G-5 Mk III Howitzer for Next 10 Years but The Weight and Powerful of Excalibur should be Need for M777A2. Just Saying Lan.
AM,
“How Did you know Know”
Easy, The Army Official And Janes told it already in few months ago.
“Anyway, We never heard anything the M119”
Hmm, It’s The Variates of British L118 Light Gun (US Made 105mm Howitzer)
Possibillity I really not saying that M777 should be On Airborne Division. Seriously, The M777 i just only if Possible to replace it if The G5 is out of Commision in the Next Few Years.
About the MD-530G, It will be send by Next Month alongside with LG1 Howitzer.
And Mr….., The MD-530G Will be fitted with Scorpion HMCS Officially
… – ”I don’t see any technical problems with the helicopters, so what is the paperwork issue that is holding it back then?”
It could be the smallest of things : technical or bureaucratic, involving others apart from the platform’s OEM and the end user.
Take the Super Lynxs as an example. Even after they were all delivered, there were delays with Link Y integration. The last aircraft was only officially handed over at LIMA after Link Y issues had been sorted out. This despite the OEM saying there would be no issues and integration involving Western to Western systems.
AM – ”Weight and logistics are always an issue with airborne guns.”
Spot on. The guns, crew, ammo and prime movers [if needed or available] will all have to be lifted. On top of that sufficient numbers of helicopters have to be available to fly the needed number of sorties. Not that I want to the army to be in a position of having to operate and stock spares for 3 different 155mm guns but I can’t help wondering if – despite the M109s – we still have a requirement for a lorry mounted system, i.e. Caesar.
On Safran mentioning the signing for the LG1s next month, I believe there was some previous mention – somewhere – about it being signed at DSA along with the M109s.
how many m109 will the army be getting?
@ azlan
“We use to keep some Model 56s as war reserves but I doubt it’s enough to equip a whole regiment”
If 1 rejimen bantuan rapat is getting LG-1, and another M109’s, then there will be 2 regiments worth of oto melara’s in excess to create 1 new regiment for sarawak.
@ safran
As for howitzers for PARA, i don’t think we need something with 155mm calibre, 105mm is more than enough. The G5 is a decent gun, and if we want to add the numbers, Qatar just recently retired their 12 G5’s. On extending the range with excalibur, 1 is the price of those rounds, 2 is the issue of targetting at such long ranges. The massive firepower of 155mm rounds is also an issue, for urban operations, and the issue of avoiding civilian casualties. If you want to level a whole city regardless of casualties, 155mm is great, but precision long range targetting, in jungle covered area, that is another matter.
Alex,
Official 24 M109A5+ and 6 for Spare Parts. I think it will be on the new Artillery Regiment.
Safran “The Range of M777 with Excalibur is 40KM.”
Come now, it’s hard to imagine an army on our budget making any great use of Excalibur. (This despite us trying to develop a counterpart to Copperhead / Krasnopol.) As with all things, it’s what we can afford to fire / fly / sail on a regular basis that counts.
No army uses Excalibur just to get the extra range- they use various extended range rounds (base bleed and RAP), longer barrels or both.
Whatever the projectile, whether M107 or M795 or Excalibur, firing the same round from a longer barrel will always get you a longer range.
Safran “I don’t know how to say but Iraqs and Qatar Replace Quickly the G5”
I don’t know WHY you are saying it. You neglected to say that Qatar replaced the G5 with the Pzh2000 which is in an entirely different class. Iraq received M198s as aid to replace the G5s it lost (to action and attrition) long ago. By your logic why should we replace G5 with M777- why not Pzh2000 or M198?
…. – ”If 1 rejimen bantuan rapat is getting LG-1”
As I said earlier, I’m going on the assumption that 10 Para’s Model 56s might be too worn out to be transferred anywhere. The army has always been reluctant to replace its Model 56s unless it really had to and over the years several have been ‘retired’.
Safran – ” I don’t know how to say but Iraqs and Qatar Replace Quickly the G5”
Good for them but in our case, I really doubt there is need or intent to replace the G-5s. Just because others have done something doesn’t mean we should too.
On the M109s, I hope the AC is up to the task for use in our climate. I know a times the AC in several vehicles we operate is not up to the task. There are pics of Israeli M109s and Dutch Pzh2000 operating with their doors open and ammo and charges placed outside. Whether this was because of AC issues or the fact that it’s more practical/faster [given the lack of counter battery fire] for ammo and charges to be placed outside when performing extended/sustained fire is anyone’s guess; probably a combination of both those factors.
… – ”155mm rounds is also an issue, for urban operations, and the issue of avoiding civilian casualties. If you want to level a whole city regardless of casualties,”
Whether it’s a 105mm or 155mm round; indiscriminate use or undirected fire will still result in civilian casualties; irrespective of the fact the 155mm round is a larger round. Relying on 105mm to avoid casualties will not make much of a difference. Even to 155mm rounds however, buildings have proved to be very resistant; with main structures still standing despite repeated direct hits.
To ”level a whole city” it’s been found that MLRS and 500/1000 pound bombs are much more effective. We seen this in Chechnya, Iraq and Syria where the main means of leveling cities were MLRS and air dropped bombs. Arty was mainly used to interdict supply lines leading to the city and to seal it of. For the Russians of course, their main means of leveling whole blocks is TOS-1 which has appeared in Syria. Of course Russian doctrine differs in that they’ve long seen the use for widespread employment of thermobaric rounds in urban setting. The idea of using thermobaric rounds at an infantry level has caught on much slower in the West.
AM – ”I don’t know WHY you are saying it.”
From various comments made it would seem that there’s a tendency to assume [again – based on comments] that just because others are doing something or can do something; that we should also or can also do it. A good example would be the issue of Mil-8/17s. Years ago many were saying that we should go down this route as it was cheaper than Cougars and because others had already bought it. Was was not mentioned is that the others who bought it already had some in service or had been flying Mil-8/17s for years and had [unlike us] the needed ground support infrastructure in place.
Safran – ”Is the M119 will be the Main gun For All Artillery Regiment.”
I’ve yet to hear any news of us being offered or being interested in it. At this juncture why would we, given we’ve ordered LG1s? The closest we came to acquiring M119\L119s was in the late 1990’s; courtesy of Naval Dockyard.
Safran – ”we upgrade the SLEP G-5 Mk III Howitzer”
We didn’t upgrade anything – we bought G-5 Mk111s.
AM,
That’s The Problem AM, That’s a Real Problem with G5. The Iraqis ?, they Actually Buy the Second had of M198 and i not trying to say we SHOULD BUY M777 but what happens if Our G5 was destroyed more than 20 Howitzer. The goverment buys 28 G5 in 2000 and it was not a Wish or something eles. You don’t have a point either. What I trying To say if What happen if Our G5 is Not In comminsed, Outdated and Many. Additional 155mm was not matter to me but in the same way I don’t want another Problem With these 155mm that being outdated in 2020.
Mr…..,
I didn’t say the 155mm to be On the Airborne Division. Cause It is so heavy When Put inside the C-130 and A400M.
Azlan
“We didn’t Upgrade anything, We Brought G5 Mk III”
Oh…, i missed the point. Thanks For remind me that.
@ Safran
Why do we need to buy M777 to replace the G5? What is your reasoning for this?
Is our G5 destroyed by war like Iraq?
Is the G5 have no more spares available? (barrels can still be had from south africa, china or even india)
Is the G5 outdated? Is there a big performance difference between G5 and M777? A howitzer is a howitzer, like the Browning M2 0.50cal. Unless suddenly electromagnetic rail guns is all the rage.
BTW we don’t have an airborne division, just a para brigade.
Safran:
No, earlier you were saying the G5s should be replaced. Let me show you: “Even M777 should be replace both FH-70 and G5 Howitzer since it went to the 20s but for now.” and “I don’t know how to say but Iraqs and Qatar Replace Quickly the G5 and The Range of M777 with Excalibur is 40KM. It should be on the New Regiment if They really want too…”
Safran “I didn’t say the 155mm to be On the Airborne Division. Cause It is so heavy When Put inside the C-130 and A400M.”
The M777 is light enough to be slingloaded by a Chinook (Not that I am advocating that we routinely deploy our guns by helicopter). The idea that it would strain a C-130 or A400M is laughable.
“What I trying To say if What happen if Our G5 is Not In comminsed, Outdated and Many. Additional 155mm was not matter to me but in the same way I don’t want another Problem With these 155mm that being outdated in 2020.”
Maybe you can explain why you think the G5 is outdated or soon to be outdated.
Hi…. yesterday evening while driving along NKvE I saw a md530 flying towards Subang airport. However did not manage to see it wether the colour is military or civilian colour scheme but for sure without any stub wings to attached the weapon pylon.
Reply
It’s the Sapura MD600N which I reported last year
@ azlan
” A good example would be the issue of Mil-8/17s. Years ago many were saying that we should go down this route as it was cheaper than Cougars and because others had already bought it”
I thought you were the one wanting to go down that route many years ago.
https://www.malaysiandefence.com/the-cougar-why/#comment-1622
…..,
Yes I was, initially, in terms of how many we could afford. But that was before however I was told that it had no auto pilot, no simulator and had unanswered questions as to who product support and warranty; which is why I posted what I did in my last post of the thread. If I hadn’t change my opinion I wouldn’t have posted what I did because because it clearly highlights that I was wrong to initially propose we go for Mil-17s due to costs factors. Also, if we look at my many other posts later on the subject; I always spoke against us buying the Mil-17, even if it was cheaper than the Cougar. Perhaps you could also look that up?
Safran,
There is no ”problem” with the G-5 and the issue with the Iraqis has ZERO bearing on us. Yes we only have 28 G-5s but so? I can say we only have 36 ASTROS and what will happen if those are destroyed? The issue of what will ”happen if Our G5 is Not In comminsed, Outdated and Many” should not arise as ours are in commission and are not ”outdated”. You yourself said that they were the Mk111 variant/model.
Also note that Iraq’s G-5s were bought in the 1980’s; the reason they decided to retire or replace them could have been due to various issues. Maybe they thought it was just more practical to operate something else or didn’t want to order any spares. Maybe it’s because they don’t have many left.
….,
In the past I also advocated we replace our Nuris but that was before I found out that they had lots of hours left and that the vast majority of crashes was not due to the age of the Nuri or any serious technical issues it had but due to other reasons. Note that in all the posts since then, I always stressed that there was no need to replace the Nuris because the subject of age or technical issues don’t arise.
AM,
That’s Your Real Problem !!. You should explain yourself about 155mm since you starting to Rant it.
Too much Pressure to AM and Azlan…
The G-5 Will be Happen anytime even After 2020…. They need a SLEP Program or A Replacement soon… Both of You Need to stop defending the G-5…
@ Safran
Calm down.
You are the one who bought up G5 need to be replaced story. We just want to hear your reasoning.
Do you know why Iraq replaced their G5?
Because MOST are destroyed in the 2 gulf wars by counter artillery fire and CAS aircrafts. They don’t have any G5 now. Period. That is why they requested M198 from surplus US stocks as that is the quickest way to replenish their ORBAT.
@ Azlan
You dont need 2 postings to explain why. I know your stand. Its just me that find it funny such statement on Mi-17 coming from you.
BTW you won’t catch me doing the same criticizing those who liked JF-17 LoL!
Mr…..,
The Reason why G-5 Need a SLEP Upgrade Cause I asked One of the Artillery Troops Says that It’s Hard to Aim at the Target and few of G-5 Howitzer didn’t have an GPS Guide (That Make Sence). Eventually, The Really need a New Regiment 155mm for Sabah (Which M109 was Selected) So I was Thinking that One of the Blogs Asked the BAE that They Offer M777 and M119 For Malaysia (Which the Idea can Replacing the G-5 but for me. They still in good condition).
Still, The thing is Is The 105mm SHOULD Be Replaced or not since the LG1 has been Placed for Airborne Regiment. Cause We Using Pack Howitzer Nearly 60 years.
Look, Even i brought the Up an Replacement Dosen’t mean Should be Replaced or what. Just a Openion in few Years. AM’s Comment makes me More Pressure when he comment like a Threaten to me. Maybe i twisted but sometimes i Messed up these Comment.
Actually the 155 G5 can be overhauled n maintained. The barrel can be realigned no issues about that.
Hard to aim?. Interesting what is the reason for it being hard to aim please?.
When aim is used , does it mean it is difficult to swing right n left n also elevate or depressed?.
GPS?. none of the 105 mm pack howitzers have GPS. its not the end of the world. Go back to basic of map reading n surveying.
Anyway the US is looking for ways to go away with GPS usage as its prone to jamming n spoofing. The alternative way is using modern refined old hardware like inertial gyro etc but coupled with a modern computer.
The 105 mm guns are in more urgent need for replacement. If we have the dough, more G5 can be bought.
@ safran
Hard to aim? Practice more.
No ballistic computer? Advances in electronics mean they are now small and affordable. All batteries should have one of these.
https://www.maszengrange.com/img/galleries/gunzen3-w475h350.jpg
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Off topic
On the infantry battalion fire support companies mortar platoon.
Would something on VAMTACS like the EXPAL EIMOS and ESLAT SCORPION be a good system for precision fire support? With 81@82mm mortar coupled with advanced electronic fire control systems that automatically elevates the mortar to the required trajectory for the target. Precise fire with quick multiple targetting unlike manually directed mortars.
http://www.esl.at/images/slides/mortar/Mortar_Sys_800x243.png
Marhalim,
Any descriptions of the main agendas of the army’s new Army4nextG plan? What is the main priority for the new plan. What are the main focus, fight against something like the IS/philippine insurgents, border security, or still conventional peer wars?
Reply
No details just the desire for the Army to be capable of fighting on two fronts. From that we can assumed that the Eastern Command will have the same or similar capabilities as of the Western Command
Hmm……………………..
I have no more question as you guys Have Been Pressure on me right now
Safran “AM’s Comment makes me More Pressure when he comment like a Threaten to me. Maybe i twisted but sometimes i Messed up these Comment.”
I am sorry you feel pressure from us. By commenting here, we all feel the right to quote others and be quoted by others.
Maybe in future if you want to make comments that contradict each other, you can tell us which comments you mean seriously and which comments you don’t mean.
I always wondered why we did not buy the G6 ( the SPH version of the G5). It would lessen logistical foot print in terms of ammo, training and barrel. But the proposed M109 A5 will do just fine IMO. Read somewhre for a cannon barrel to be worned out, it normally happened after being fired around 1000 rounds. Did that many firing of the FH70 happened during its 20 years life span (or less) in ATM
– The G-5s are paired with a Thales FCS and Gunzen hand held computers. The mortars use a Morfire. In the future AV-8s fitted with Vintaqs will be able to adjust artillery fire.
– The army’s present focus at the moment is non state threats but at the same time it’s still looking at ways to deal with possible external threats. The issues [as faced by others also] is how much – with existing manpower and financial resources – it can focus on dealing with non state threats whilst simultaneously improving the ability to deal with possible external threats. The Lahad Dato incident ended in 2013 but its legacy [together with the kidnaps] is that 5 years on; we have devoted so much attention and focus on making sure something similar doesn’t reoccur. We can only hope that we won’t next be faced with an incident somewhere else; one that also requires a different response and solutions to what we’ve already put in place at ESSCOM.
kamal,
Like mos things South African the G-6 was developed with the SADF’s operational requirements in mind. In the case of G-5, Rookat annd Badger; the need to move long distances over open terrain and the decision that a wheeled option is a better [as well as a cheaper and more comfortable] one compared to a tracked platform. In our case maybe we there was something about the
G-6 that didn’t appeal to us or maybe we decided we either wanted a tracked option or a gun mounted on a lorry option.
Safran – ”as you guys Have Been Pressure on me right now”
We have been seeking clarification and expressing our opinions; not ”pressuring” you.
kamal – ”for a cannon barrel to be worned out, it normally happened after being fired around 1000 rounds.”
Not sure how often they fired or how many rounds but I was told the reason we retired them was because their barrels wore out. We of course could have got spare barrels and were also offered pre owned FH-70s but decided against it.
Reply
It may well be we used different type of shell and charges not to specifications which may result in faster barrel wear
Was going through some photos taken on Merdeka Day and I just noticed a Milkor M32 with a scope and a Picatinny rail. I wonder if the M32s has totally replaced all the Mk1s or if we just acquired a few.
I think just PASKAU is seen with the M32, not other units. This is seen as early as 2015.
Just happen to come across something unique in this picture
https://www.malaysiandefence.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/MD-530G-cockpit-CROP.jpg
On both control stick, there is a button marked FLOAT. Does that mean the helicopters will be equipped with emergency floats?
http://image02w.seesaawiki.jp/n/2/namacha2/eba15f59a7c59013.jpg
Reply
Again, the pictures uploaded by MD Helicopters are not representative of the Army specified MD530Gs. We will have to wait and see if they are equipped with floats. Likely fitted for not equipped with
The Nuri has/had an ability to perform water landings but due to various issues we hardly did it.
On attack helicopters.
Brazilian army has expressed interest in getting surplus ex-USMC AH-1W SuperCobras.